Question on Jukai (Sewing pre-Soto Precepts)

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Laysitter
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Re: Question on Jukai (Sewing pre-Soto Precepts)

Post by Laysitter » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:12 pm

Meido wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:55 pm

FWIW, use of the "16 precepts" (3 refuges + 3 pure precepts + 10 grave precepts) for the lay refuge ceremony is a Soto-specific thing. Elsewhere, taking the 3 refuges and then the 5 lay precepts is the norm.

Back to topic: i appreciate places that offer some study, classes, or lecture regarding the precepts before they are given.
Meido, thank you. In this case I've received the 5 lay precepts (long ago, still have the incense burn on the inside of my arm to show it) and perhaps do not need to do this again. I should think about why the first set of precepts wasn't enough.... I think that I got into the Soto/16 really only as a social activity. And sangha is great, that isn't necessarily a bad reason. But maybe I do or don't need to take it further. Food for much thought today.

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lindama
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Re: Question on Jukai (Sewing pre-Soto Precepts)

Post by lindama » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:14 pm

Meido wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:01 pm
Nice that such meetings were offered, Linda.

And another point RE the usefulness of some explanation or class like that being offered: aside from the surface meaning of the precepts, many Buddhist schools have unique ways of using them to point out more profound aspects of the path. Zen also is like this. Lacking that knowledge, though, it is possible to misuse the precepts, or make them into another hindrance.
Hope I'm not being confusing... I'm just remembering that part of the teaching touched on the 3 Kayas as a way of relating to the precepts. (dharmakaya, sambogakaya, nirmanakaya) It was not a focus bec most people did not have the background to relate, but I found it a useful way of approaching them.

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KeithA
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Re: Question on Jukai (Sewing pre-Soto Precepts)

Post by KeithA » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:18 pm

Laysitter wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:12 pm
Meido wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:55 pm

FWIW, use of the "16 precepts" (3 refuges + 3 pure precepts + 10 grave precepts) for the lay refuge ceremony is a Soto-specific thing. Elsewhere, taking the 3 refuges and then the 5 lay precepts is the norm.

Back to topic: i appreciate places that offer some study, classes, or lecture regarding the precepts before they are given.
Meido, thank you. In this case I've received the 5 lay precepts (long ago, still have the incense burn on the inside of my arm to show it) and perhaps do not need to do this again. I should think about why the first set of precepts wasn't enough.... I think that I got into the Soto/16 really only as a social activity. And sangha is great, that isn't necessarily a bad reason. But maybe I do or don't need to take it further. Food for much thought today.
Emphasis mine.

It's good to consider your next steps carefully. It's possible that it would remove future heartache and confusion.

I do wonder if giving some very honest feedback to the folks in charge might be helpful. You would learn a lot from the response. Perhaps you have already done this.

_/|\_
Keith
You make, you get.

New Haven Zen Center

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WoodsyLadyM
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Re: Question on Jukai (Sewing pre-Soto Precepts)

Post by WoodsyLadyM » Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:34 pm

Meido wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:55 pm
Laysitter wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:40 pm
Actually, thinking of the non-Buddhist reminds me that the 16 Precepts are actually the most disregarded part of this whole process (mentioned once briefly, never again, as though not relevant).
FWIW, use of the "16 precepts" (3 refuges + 3 pure precepts + 10 grave precepts) for the lay refuge ceremony is a Soto-specific thing. Elsewhere, taking the 3 refuges and then the 5 lay precepts is the norm.

Back to topic: i appreciate places that offer some study, classes, or lecture regarding the precepts before they are given.
Are the 3 refuges and the 5 lay precepts the norm in Rinzai Zen?

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Meido
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Re: Question on Jukai (Sewing pre-Soto Precepts)

Post by Meido » Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:50 pm

Yes.

The 16 are used in monastic ordination.
The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice
Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org
Madison, WI Rinzai Zen Community [機山龍源寺] - http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
The Rinzai Zen Community - http://www.rinzaizen.org

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WoodsyLadyM
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Re: Question on Jukai (Sewing pre-Soto Precepts)

Post by WoodsyLadyM » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:57 pm

Meido wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:50 pm
Yes.

The 16 are used in monastic ordination.
Thanks.

:namaste:

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Question on Jukai (Sewing pre-Soto Precepts)

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:47 pm

L.,
Laysitter wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:40 pm
desert_woodworker wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:38 pm
(I think that a supposed feeling of "pressure" is highly subjective, and that it's worth looking quite objectively at whether pressure is indeed being exerted or not, and whether one may be -- for whatever reason(s) -- reading into a benign situation where the precepts and jukai are merely being offered).
Oh no, there is definitely pressure being applied for everyone who was identified as being even minimally interested to stay in the group.
Well, that fortifies the view of it. Good that you're on your guard. And, again, you're the Boss.

I agree with Keith, that it's worth asking questions of the Management about this. Third-parties such as ourselves here are too distant.

Strong practice,

--Joe

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Question on Jukai (Sewing pre-Soto Precepts)

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:02 am

To take Jukai, though, is a fine thing:

These Ways of a Buddha are the on-ramp to the Buddhaway.

--Joe

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