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Friend
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Friend » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:31 am

clyde wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:26 am
Yes, Friend, it was my intention when I wrote, “not for Zen monks, priests, or teachers,” to mean ordained persons. I have added the word “ordained” to avoid future confusion.
Why "Ordained" teachers now, and not just "teachers"? You said ...
I have the utmost respect for Zen teachers and the special relationship they form with students, but an informal and open forum is not conducive to such relationships and the presence of Zen teachers is not conducive to an informal and open discussion of students and the curious talking about “Zen”.

The forum is not a substitute for a Zen teacher and the student-teacher relationship. At best it’s a poor substitute for a sangha. But it’s an OK substitute for Dharma friends. It’s best as an addition to our practice.
and
Regarding the focus on lay people, I understand that Zen Space will lose the knowledge and respected views of teachers. But that, “respected views” is both appropriate and the problem; i.e., it creates a situation where forum members are not all equal, some are students and some are honored teachers.
How is that different for "the Head Dharma Teacher of the New Haven Zen Center. He is a Senior Dharma Teacher in the Kwan Um School of Zen"?

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clyde
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Re: Dear Members

Post by clyde » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:55 am

No, not now. I just explained, “it was my intention when I wrote, “not for Zen monks, priests, or teachers,” to mean ordained persons.”

And the difference is one is ordained and the other isn’t.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

Friend
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Friend » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:08 am

clyde wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:55 am
No, not now. I just explained, “it was my intention when I wrote, “not for Zen monks, priests, or teachers,” to mean ordained persons.”

And the difference is one is ordained and the other isn’t.
Very good. After you get some rest, I look forward to your explanation.

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Fruitzilla
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Fruitzilla » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:42 am

Friend wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:08 am
clyde wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:55 am
No, not now. I just explained, “it was my intention when I wrote, “not for Zen monks, priests, or teachers,” to mean ordained persons.”

And the difference is one is ordained and the other isn’t.
Very good. After you get some rest, I look forward to your explanation.
Dude, you have 5 posts on this forum, 4 in this topic. I don't see why you should be entitled to an explanation.

Seeker242
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Seeker242 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:28 pm

Kicking out teachers? Huh?...I doubt very much that will change anything for the better... It will bring the caliber of the forum down another level, which is not a good thing.

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Dan74
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Dan74 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:58 pm

It's clear that many folks don't agree with this change.

But I suggest we look beyond our preferences for a moment and bring out the best in us to see what we can make of this place, of this opportunity to come together and share our practice, our love of Zen. Who knows, perhaps in time, the teachers will be invited back, and in the meantime, we can contribute something positive to the place.

_/|\_
Last edited by Dan74 on Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Not Site Admin any longer, despite what it says.

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KeithA
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Re: Dear Members

Post by KeithA » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:01 pm

Friend wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:15 am
KeithA wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:15 am
An interesting, and dare I say, bold initiative. :112:

I don't know where it will lead, but I do know the concept of a Zen forum has been an abysmal failure at every attempt.

The teacher/student thing is really central to Zen Buddhism. In fact, if there is no teacher/student relationship, then it isn't Zen Buddhism. But, it falls apart in a mixed tradition online forum. Clyde's point about seeking out the teacher, if so desired, is a pretty solid one, imho.

Round and round...


_/|\_
Keith
Keith, you have to go as well?
Keith Angilly is the Head Dharma Teacher of the New Haven Zen Center. He is a Senior Dharma Teacher in the Kwan Um School of Zen and lives in Meriden, CT with his wife and son.

http://wyeth-test.com/trinzen/our-teachers/
Hi Shel,

I have not been given inga (inka jp.) nor have I been given transmission. I do think that the word “ordained” is semantically difficult. The vast majority of teachers (JDPSN,s and Zen Masters) in Kwan Um Zen are, in fact, lay people. While I am first and foremost a student, I do fall in some kind of middle ground within my own tradition. But, no farther than that. Were I to visit another tradition, I would never represent myself as a Teacher.

To Clyde’s credit, he reached out to me and asked me to clarify my status. I explained the above and in no way did I lobby for my inclusion here. His forum, his rules and I said I would respect whatever decision he made.

_/|\_
Keith
You make, you get.

New Haven Zen Center

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Larry
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Larry » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:28 pm

For people missing Meido, in addition to Dharma Wheel, he often posts on the "Zen Dialogue" Facebook forum. And for people missing Jundo, apart from Treeleaf, he posts daily on the "Soto Zen Buddhism" Facebook forum.

Sorry for any upset caused by mention of Jundo :D

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Dear Members

Post by desert_woodworker » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:12 pm

Good thread.

It was good of elg, el gato, anirukta, to put in an appearance. He's a one whom I miss.

Larry wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:28 pm
Sorry for any upset caused by mention of Jundo :D
Larry, thanks; and, you're off the hook (at least with me). ;)

"Bamboo shadows sweep the stairs,
Yet not a mote of dust is stirred;
Moonbeams pierce to the bottom of the pool,
Yet in the water not a trace remains."


I hope to goodness that Jundo Roshi's health is better, and is now strong, and that he and his family have a fine year in 2019, and beyond.

We will also have Lunar New Year to welcome and celebrate and be glad in -- Year of the Boar -- at the next New Moon, Feb. 5. Auspicious times we live in.

"Every day is a good day",

:namaste:

--Joe
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Dear Members

Post by desert_woodworker » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:32 pm

Dear Dan, et al.,

:560: :
Dan74 wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:58 pm
It's clear that many folks don't agree with this change.

But I suggest we look beyond our preferences for a moment and bring out the best of us to see what we can make of this place, of this opportunity to come together and share our practice, our love of Zen. Who knows, perhaps in time, the teachers will be invited back, and in the meantime, we can contribute something positive to the place.
The next owner of the forum, if it is me, will invite ONLY teachers. That is, we must all be each others' teacher. Though not overtly. I'd say readers may pick and choose what they want to learn from, amidst what they may read here (or there).

Of course ordained and otherwise denominated teachers will be included and I'll expect them, as perhaps the truest "true persons of no rank", to conduct themselves in accord with the ground-rules of the board, or else receive their walking/kinhin papers after a warning, or three. I'd have no qualms and no hesitation about moderating the posts of the ordained, nor those of the unelect. Equal opportunity self-disgrace would be the rule of the day, and the moderator would save the member from further disgrace by out-and-out banning, giving 'em the hook as on the Vaudeville stage.

This is "engaged-Buddhism". ;)

Compassion for All.

But that's me. And it won't be me as owner, nor moderator, ever. Breathe easy. I've been that at several sites, and I don't have time for that sort of thing nowadays: I am retired.

Love and kinhin,

--Joe
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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lindama
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Re: Dear Members

Post by lindama » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:42 pm

Fruitzilla wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:42 am
Friend wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:08 am
clyde wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:55 am
No, not now. I just explained, “it was my intention when I wrote, “not for Zen monks, priests, or teachers,” to mean ordained persons.”

And the difference is one is ordained and the other isn’t.
Very good. After you get some rest, I look forward to your explanation.
Dude, you have 5 posts on this forum, 4 in this topic. I don't see why you should be entitled to an explanation.
I can top that, 330+, thousands on ZFI. not that it means a thing. given the responses, perhaps it's time for further explanation/consideration. I realize that mega conversations/ management issues are not typically allowed on forums. I think this is an exception. Perhaps we can all learn something.

I also realize that this is a difficult situation for Clyde since he has generously agreed to moderate knowing full well the intensities involved and as well, respecting his own limits with regard to moderating teachers. Quite a few of us go back to nearly day 1 at ZFI, seen it all. As the zen koan says, walk a straight line on a crooked road.

First, it seems we have to appreciate those folks who may not post and are silent participants. They are in the majority here. I always notice the silent ones logged on. I usually check to see who's on, it's rarely more than 1/2 members, often 6+ others. As it turns out, I am a silent one these days. Thank you joop and friend for stepping forward.

I can only speak from my piece of the rock. Putting aside the elephant in the room, ie, this is a dying beast since before ZFI went off the air. What is possible? How can we honor all the voices? Where is the possibility for growth? Frankly, I, on the one hand, I am sick to death of the word practice... this is not a dress rehearsal. here we are. Understand, that statement is not offered as a judgement about practice itself.

Things to consider:

Without teachers, there is no one driving the bus. ppl are left to their own delusions. Teachers offer a balance. I'm not a fan of looking to authority, but it is an important piece at times. Zen does follow a prescribed pattern to be called zen and/or zen buddhism. that has always been the rub.

This forum, from the beginning, seems to be a reaction to past experience, formed in the hopes of doing better. all good. As a result, there have been artifical barriers placed in the river to control it. how's it working so far? As a result, we have lost ppl who were irritating to that purpose, some for better, most for worse. In my mind, this is not a reason to continue (fixing past mistakes). This forum has the possibility of much more substance and it can also die a natural death.

I am completely unreliable in knowing how a forum should work. Who can know where the wild horses go?

Have to wonder about the sustainability of a forum when individual preferences are at it's base. Change is inevitable. We are not running a corporation here.

There are no teachers here... Our teachers Meido and Guo Gu, understandably are moving on with large projects of their own. I'm grateful for knowing them, wish them well. I see the distinction between ordained and lay teachers as meaningless. what purpose does this serve?

I honor Clyde's thoughtful approach and wish to act in integrity. I dunno, the only thing I can suggest is to consider again the challenge of moderating teachers as a path to growth. At the moment, there are no teachers to moderate and it's a rare thing for teachers to require moderation. If such a need arises, I'd suggest that a consultation is called for.... no need to make a unilateral decision with regard to them.

Otherwise, we could wind up with a bird with one wing. Food for thought.

linda

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clyde
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Re: Dear Members

Post by clyde » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:58 pm

And now it’s time to post the rules:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=561#p11180

And again, I hope you understand my reasoning for the changes, that they have a positive effect, and that you will continue to participate at Zen Space.

We all want to feel comfortable here, but we each have different levels of sensitivity to words and subjects, and images; so please be considerate in what you post.

In addition to the rules, I have one suggestion. This is not appropriate for all members or all situations, but before Reporting a post, you might consider sending the member a PM about your concern. My experience, even on the most contentious forums, is that most people do not intentionally offend others and if informed, will self-moderate.

Remember that Right Speech applies in all circumstances, even in PMs.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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fuki
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Re: Dear Members

Post by fuki » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:10 pm

clyde wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:58 pm
In addition to the rules, I have one suggestion. This is not appropriate for all members or all situations, but before Reporting a post, you might consider sending the member a PM about your concern. My experience, even on the most contentious forums, is that most people do not intentionally offend others and if informed, will self-moderate.

Remember that Right Speech applies in all circumstances, even in PMs.
That would be lovely if people (learned) to communicate healthy, i.e. expressing their feelings without attacking/projecting I'd prefer it more in the open then PM but it will do.

I often use this as an example in any relation-ship;

A: Why don't you take another beer, you drunk!
B: It makes me uncomfortable (I feel unsafe/hurt etc) when you drink.

Example A will be counterproductive because it is conceived as an attack, hurt/fear will manifest disguised in a combatitive defense habit usually expressed in anger.

Example B only lets the other know what effect their behaviour has, and doesn't demand or expect anything, which if a grain of empathy is in the person will have a healthy effect.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

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fuki
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Re: Dear Members

Post by fuki » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:13 pm

Clyde, reminds me after/during the last drama episode on zenspace (banned members, ppl being attacked all the time)
I wrote this as a test;

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=433

As I said often, if any of my words (mostly lounge material) is offensive, please talk about it.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

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Enver M.
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Enver M. » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:19 pm

the speech of right or right speech?
no need for mathematic !!!
:waving:

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lindama
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Re: Dear Members

Post by lindama » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:47 pm

Enver M. wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:19 pm
the speech of right or right speech?
Enver,

Good dharma here ... This poem was read aloud by the entire group often before dinner at sesshin. I have two copies, the one below includes the Hebrew. Amichai was an Israeli poet (1924-2000). The irony is inescapable.
The Place Where We Are Right
by Yehuda Amichai
From the place where we are right
Flowers will never grow
In the spring.
The place where we are right
Is hard and trampled
Like a yard.
But doubts and loves
Dig up the world
Like a mole, a plow.
And a whisper will be heard in the place
Where the ruined
House once stood.

well, sorry, I can't get the Hebrew to display...

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Larry
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Larry » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:01 pm

:namaste:

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fuki
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Re: Dear Members

Post by fuki » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:04 pm

lindama wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:47 pm
The Place Where We Are Right
by Yehuda Amichai
From the place where we are right
Flowers will never grow
In the spring.
The place where we are right
Is hard and trampled
Like a yard.
But doubts and loves
Dig up the world
Like a mole, a plow.
And a whisper will be heard in the place
Where the ruined
House once stood.
Linda that just reminded me of this picture taken in Bob's burned down house/garden (Paradise CA)
1.jpg
Lillies growing through the dirt and ash
1.jpg (101.2 KiB) Viewed 261 times
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

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lindama
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Re: Dear Members

Post by lindama » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:11 pm

ohhhhh, thanks Fuki. Dear Bob :111:

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Enver M.
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Enver M. » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:21 pm

:113:
no need for mathematic !!!
:waving:

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