Non-dwelling and Conscientiousness

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Mason
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Non-dwelling and Conscientiousness

Post by Mason » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:20 pm

There seem to be two different ways to live life, and two different ways to approach dharma practice. In the first way, which I'll go along with fuki in calling "non-dwelling," there is no effort, no plans, no forceful action. One just "goes with the flow" or "lets go and lets God" or basically just completely entrusts their behavior to the spontaneous and intelligent, wave-like natural awareness. In the second way, one exerts oneself to accomplish their aim of developing the factors of Awakening or otherwise makes plans, forms intentions, and uses force when necessary to attain their intended goal.

Are these two approaches to life and practice fundamentally different, or is there a way of understanding, or a way of practice, which fuses the two and allows them to work in tandem?

This is a serious practice question, so maybe leave the "nonzense" at the door, please.
:namaste:

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Non-dwelling and Conscientiousness

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:35 pm

Mason, I have some reservations about the interpretation of some of the research reviewed in the book, but I like and respect the notion and use of the word "traits" in Dan Goleman and Richie Davidson's 2017 book, ALTERED TRAITS -- SCIENCE REVEALS HOW MEDITATION CHANGES YOUR MIND, BRAIN, AND BODY.

Now, "Altered states" may have been a fixation for some at some time, but in Buddhist practice, it's really the altering of traits that has value in one's life and in society.

Where I differ from Goleman and Davidson's interpretation of the results of practice is that they appear to be convinced that practice is essentially a TRAINING. I disagree, because, I suppose, for the reason that I am a Zen practitioner. My interpretation is that (Zen Buddhist) practice opens and frees and reveals our true nature, and is not a training. When true Wisdom and true Compassion arise, it's not because we have PRACTICED those, but because we have practiced something else (a yoga... ).

The authors have not studied Zen Buddhist practitioners, and have only studied other Buddhist practitioners.

But I still like their emphasis on traits, not states. I just claim that the traits arise from our original nature, original face, original Human inheritance, and not from directed practice of those traits. This is a big difference! But I agree that "traits" are "where it's at", come how they may.

With friendly greetings,

--Joe
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mason
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Re: Non-dwelling and Conscientiousness

Post by Mason » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:46 pm

Here are two quotes from the suttas:
"And what, monks, is right effort?

"There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen.

"He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen.

"He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen.

"He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort."
"Now, when the monk is percipient of himself here, then from there to there, step by step, he touches the peak of perception. As he remains at the peak of perception, the thought occurs to him, 'Thinking is bad for me. Not thinking is better for me. If I were to think and will, this perception of mine would cease, and a grosser perception would appear. What if I were neither to think nor to will?' So he neither thinks nor wills, and as he is neither thinking nor willing, that perception ceases and another, grosser perception does not appear. He touches cessation. This, Potthapada, is how there is the alert step-by step attainment of the ultimate cessation of perception.
:namaste:

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fuki
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Re: Non-dwelling and Conscientiousness

Post by fuki » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:15 pm

Mason wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:20 pm
Are these two approaches to life and practice fundamentally different, or is there a way of understanding, or a way of practice, which fuses the two and allows them to work in tandem?

This is a serious practice question, so maybe leave the "nonzense" at the door, please.
Effort appears when it is needed, there is just no illusion of a personal effort or acting volitionally, so plans, thoughts, activities happen just not from an imaginary phenomenal center, in other words activity is not energized by the 'me-concept', but a functioning of the 'totality' In that way the second is another expression of the first. When I finish this coffee I have a date with the cat litter, it needs changing.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

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Mason
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Re: Non-dwelling and Conscientiousness

Post by Mason » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:19 pm

Ah! Just what I needed to hear. Thank you.

I am going to be practicing "non-dwelling" very very hard today. :lol:
:namaste:

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Non-dwelling and Conscientiousness

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:32 pm

hey, Mace,
Mason wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:19 pm
I am going to be practicing "non-dwelling" very very hard today. :lol:
Don't be evicted from your dwelling. That meditation room and altar looked very nice and inviting to me.

;) ,

--Joe

avisitor
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Re: Non-dwelling and Conscientiousness

Post by avisitor » Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:39 pm

Mason wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:20 pm
There seem to be two different ways to live life, and two different ways to approach dharma practice. In the first way, which I'll go along with fuki in calling "non-dwelling," there is no effort, no plans, no forceful action. One just "goes with the flow" or "lets go and lets God" or basically just completely entrusts their behavior to the spontaneous and intelligent, wave-like natural awareness. In the second way, one exerts oneself to accomplish their aim of developing the factors of Awakening or otherwise makes plans, forms intentions, and uses force when necessary to attain their intended goal.

Are these two approaches to life and practice fundamentally different, or is there a way of understanding, or a way of practice, which fuses the two and allows them to work in tandem?

This is a serious practice question, so maybe leave the "nonzense" at the door, please.
As has been stressed to me many times, when in a setting of a teacher and sangha, the practice is to follow the instructions given

However, if one is alone in one's path then how does one know the path one takes is the right one?
Do not take this the wrong way, no effort, "non-dwelling" and, "goes with the flow" sounds to me like a cop out ..
just an excuse for not doing the work or practice of the Dharma
Of course there is probably more to this than what I can see

The second way, if one is making their own plans then how does one know that the plans are correct?
I see it as an artist (as a teacher) who molds and shapes his clay (as a student) into something they already know about
A person who does not know can make plans but what does it lead to?
Oh, if one knows what the developing the factors of awakening are then please let me know

I am sorry if this sounds like nonzense
As I do not know what practice has come before, I only say what I can see from here at the beginning of my practice
It may not pertain to this person or thread.
Please excuse my ignorance.

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Non-dwelling and Conscientiousness

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:34 pm

av,
avisitor wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:39 pm
Please excuse my ignorance.
Nope!

No need.

It's just one of the Three Poisons we all seem to inherit, Brother/Sister/Cousin.

Many/most-all of us are in this boat. Some say small boat; some say large boat.

Large boat!, for the Zen-yacht-wannabe-owners! Or, take folks out on the public yacht, whether we own the puppy or not (not).

Like me... . ;)

:namaste:

--Joe

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