For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

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avisitor
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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by avisitor » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:01 pm

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:17 pm
Well, that's why i preferred not to go into the piles of words, it leaves the wrong impression. Truth is right in front of us. ... Impermanence. Everything else, no-self, suffering, the end of suffering, all follow accordingly. Simple, but it's not what the whole world believes.

:559:
I know that even if one sees the truth of one's nature that one does not retreat into another world apart from the world one lives in now
There should not be a separation but a unification
The world may be an illusion with impermanence, no-self, suffering and all that follows accordingly
But, one does not eat meat and say that no animal was harmed. I believe Buddha gave up eating meat.
Why do that if it is only an illusion?

Yes, simple but not what the whole world believes.
That seems to be okay for now.
There will come a day when it will change, impermanence
What is important?
That we continue our practice
And the lineage of the Buddha continues
His beliefs and practices
And in this way the world will change.

Practice leads to varying degrees of the mind opening
And along the way there are traps, such as bliss, power, etc
Personally, it is about the journey to find one's nature :hatsoff:

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Kanji
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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Kanji » Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:29 am

[quote=avisitor)

From what I just read, it sounds like there is much that will prevent one from reaching the truth
Such things include "Bliss"

Don't think I have gotten that far ... :555: :106:
[/quote]

Me neither avisitor, onwards and upwards! Or downwards, or sideways! :106:

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by lindama » Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:17 pm

"The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences"
~ Faith in Mind (Hsin Hsin) ... The Third Patriarch, Jianzhi Sengcan

This comes to mind this morning. I wanted to post it recently.... There are many translations... the link below contains two of them... the written, more traditional (as I know it) and the audio, read by a younger Ram Dass voice is a very likeable, comfortable translation.

https://www.ramdass.org/ram-dass-reads- ... patriarch/


PS.... our much loved Gregory Wonderwheel, the Grandfather of ZFI (along with Clyde and others), also has a translation of Faith in Mind with commentary on Ekanyana, not two.... blog is a mix of zen and current issues:
http://wonderwheels.blogspot.com/

His translation:

http://home.pon.net/wildrose/buddhav.htm


a little history, I snagged a copy of this when he first published it on ZFI in 2009. I snagged a lot back then.

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Kanji
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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Kanji » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:44 am

I love the Hsin Hsin Ming, and sometimes feel I need to have it written on my skin as a constant reminder! Great reading too :115:

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by fuki » Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:07 am

lindama wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:17 pm
"The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences"
~ Faith in Mind (Hsin Hsin) ... The Third Patriarch, Jianzhi Sengcan

This comes to mind this morning. I wanted to post it recently.... There are many translations...
Linda, here's Faith in mind with Sheng Yeng's commentary as a guide to practise
https://terebess.hu/english/hsin3.html

"from" the sheng yeng's resource page
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=180
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
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IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by avisitor » Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:55 am

How can one instantly see Buddha nature if one drops the discriminating mind???
Stop using the thinking mind???? See Buddha nature??
What is this thing called enlightenment that one looks for or want to experience?
Does one somehow look out and know the world is different but the same?
Always talking in metaphors??

Am guessing it is not .. no thought??
Rather it is calm and unified mind in the midst of activity??
It still missed the mark??

What is it? Mu?
Does Mu become the world?
Inside, outside, thru and thru??

Someday, ....???

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[james]
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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by [james] » Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:03 pm

avisitor wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:55 am
How can one instantly see Buddha nature if one drops the discriminating mind???
Stop using the thinking mind???? See Buddha nature??
What is this thing called enlightenment that one looks for or want to experience?
Does one somehow look out and know the world is different but the same?
Always talking in metaphors??

Am guessing it is not .. no thought??
Rather it is calm and unified mind in the midst of activity??
It still missed the mark??

What is it? Mu?
Does Mu become the world?
Inside, outside, thru and thru??

Someday, ....???
So many questions??

Not to answer any of them but to suggest something you might consider and might find useful, here is how I approach the situation:

I look at the breath as an anchor and a refuge. It is quite clear to me that thoughts and, even more so, thinking, can be a burden at times. It doesn’t have to be this way of course but, let’s face it, it is. So what to do? Letting one’s attention rest on the fact of breathing allows one to place the thoughts and the thinking process into a form of objective relationship. By settling the attention on the breath we can put thoughts into a “space” of their own and have the option of observing them at a distance, somewhat objectively, with diminishing self identification. With the breath as a focus of stability, the thoughts are free to be as they will. We can acknowledge their presence and activity with wholesome awareness. They just are.

Being settled in the breath allows thoughts to be seen calmly and clearly. Thoughts are the natural activity of the human mind. They are not going to go away nor should they. Having the breath as a refuge permits a peaceful, spacious engagement with the thought stream and the structure of self.

There’s no need to put everything into a neat package, all questions answered, and call it “enlightenment”. Trying to do so is turning away from the immediate, this, now.

“Separate yourself from disturbance and face whatever appears before you.”
–Hongzhi

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fuki
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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by fuki » Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:13 pm

avisitor wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:55 am
How can one instantly see Buddha nature if one drops the discriminating mind???
https://theconsciousprocess.wordpress.c ... ic-sanity/
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Great Sage EofH » Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:12 am

avisitor wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:55 am
How can one instantly see Buddha nature if one drops the discriminating mind???
Stop using the thinking mind???? See Buddha nature??
What is this thing called enlightenment that one looks for or want to experience?
Does one somehow look out and know the world is different but the same?
Always talking in metaphors??

Am guessing it is not .. no thought??
Rather it is calm and unified mind in the midst of activity??
It still missed the mark??

What is it? Mu?
Does Mu become the world?
Inside, outside, thru and thru??

Someday, ....???
This Mind is Buddha, Buddha is this Mind
Whether thoughts arise or do not Arise
The Eyeball Cannot See itself
But One can Let go and Truly rest in Buddha Nature
Its the natural disposition of all things
Enlightenment is Being at Ease with this.
Our view of the world is constantly changing,
Change is the only "constant"
Just as Thoughts arise, thoughts also cease to Arise
This is also called the Dropping Away of Body and Mind
Unification of Mind with Activity need not be an Either/or Proposition
Fully Awake, Fully Aware
Inside, Outside, through and through
But only now, Always only now.

:namaste:
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Caodemarte » Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:27 pm

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:12 am
avisitor wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:55 am
How can one instantly see Buddha nature if one drops the discriminating mind???....
......
But One can Let go and Truly rest in Buddha Nature
Its the natural disposition of all things...
This is also called the Dropping Away of Body and Mind
.....But only now, Always only now.....
A huatou asks, “If all returns to the One, what does the One return to?”

Since nothing can move us closer to or farther from the Dharma perhaps one must drop the dropping, rest and non-rest, part, future, and present.

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Great Sage EofH » Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:47 pm

Caodemarte wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:27 pm
Great Sage EofH wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:12 am
avisitor wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:55 am
How can one instantly see Buddha nature if one drops the discriminating mind???....
......
But One can Let go and Truly rest in Buddha Nature
Its the natural disposition of all things...
This is also called the Dropping Away of Body and Mind
.....But only now, Always only now.....
A huatou asks, “If all returns to the One, what does the One return to?”

Since nothing can move us closer to or farther from the Dharma perhaps one must drop the dropping, rest and non-rest, part, future, and present.
I'm always open to group edit, i felt uneasy about that line too
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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zenmite
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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by zenmite » Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:33 pm

When I began zazen, I thought that the idea was to stop all thinking. There are some teachings that seem to imply this and I was practicing without any close guidance from a teacher at the time. I got really good at this, not only during formal zazen, but in daily life as well. A thought would arise and I would push it back down. After a few years of this practice, I was having trouble thinking at all. I recall once sitting in my car at a stop light and did not know what I was supposed to do. I was making myself dull by trying to suppress thinking. It was turning me into an idiot.

I was finally able to figure out that it was not about stopping thinking at all. I read something that J. Krishnamurti said about this sort of practice producing "A silence put together by thought". I realized that this was what I was doing. I was using thought to suppress thought. Suzuki roshi wrote (in zmbm) that; "To stop the mind does not mean to stop the activities of mind." I found this very helpful in clearing the confusion.

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Caodemarte » Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:48 pm

zenmite wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:33 pm
When I began zazen, I thought that the idea was to stop all thinking. There are some teachings that seem to imply this and I was practicing without any close guidance from a teacher at the time. I got really good at this, not only during formal zazen, but in daily life as well. A thought would arise and I would push it back down. After a few years of this practice, I was having trouble thinking at all. I recall once sitting in my car at a stop light and did not know what I was supposed to do. I was making myself dull by trying to suppress thinking. It was turning me into an idiot.

I was finally able to figure out that it was not about stopping thinking at all. I read something that J. Krishnamurti said about this sort of practice producing "A silence put together by thought". I realized that this was what I was doing. I was using thought to suppress thought. Suzuki roshi wrote (in zmbm) that; "To stop the mind does not mean to stop the activities of mind." I found this very helpful in clearing the confusion.
Very nice posting. When I get distracted by extraneous thoughts in zazen I remember that these thoughts too are no nearer or closer to the Dharma and they cease to trouble me. If I try to suppress them I just pump more energy into distraction.

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by avisitor » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:59 pm

zenmite wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:33 pm
When I began zazen, I thought that the idea was to stop all thinking. There are some teachings that seem to imply this and I was practicing without any close guidance from a teacher at the time.
Think they were implying to stop using the discriminating mind
Sort of like dropping the body and mind
When one no longer lives in this discriminating mind, one can see the truth of nature

When I began, the instructions were to let thoughts arise and let them go
Don't chase them, don't follow them, don't force them out
So, when I began, I noticed thoughts and the condition I was sitting in a room letting thoughts go
However, the thoughts came up with me inside them (difficult to explain)
Later, I was able to just watch them come and let them go
It was being the calm in the midst of activity.

Thank you for letting us know how you started.

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by desert_woodworker » Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:11 am

Dear Enver,

Speaking for myself, Zen Practice is definitely not stopping of thoughts.

But, after correct and sufficient practice, and when one awakens, everything may stop, and remain stopped for a long while, depending on the strength of the awakening. In the time when everything is stopped, there are no thoughts. For weeks or months. Perhaps longer. No dreams at night, either. Only true Wisdom and true Compassion arise, in direct response and spontaneous response to actions and conditions and beings, just at the moment that actions and conditions arise, without a hairsbreadth of time-delay. Such is our marvelous, original mind (Original Mind; Buddha Mind).

To learn actual and correct Zen Buddhist methods of practice, one needs a true teacher, and a sangha to practice with.

Zen practice is (our) everyday, ordinary, life. Of course, the methods and practices we learn and practice together with our teacher and sangha are a part of this everyday life, but these methods and practices also bring our everyday life into focus as the ever-present "arena" in which we may truly practice, and in which we must (truly) practice.

For ourselves and for all beings.

That is what I would say,

--Joe
Enver M. wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:31 am
There is three possibility in zen practice, as far as i can see.Stopping thoughts, watching thoughts and using thoughts

Which one is your practice?
Ignorance is to be ignorant of one's original mind. - Ma Tsu

Liberation is awakening to one's original nature. - Ma Tsu

A guest never knows how much to laugh at a family joke. -Henny Youngman

Bodhi-Mind is working for the good of others. -Hakuin

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by avisitor » Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:23 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:11 am
Speaking for myself, Zen Practice is definitely not stopping of thoughts.
Nice to see you are still around.
desert_woodworker wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:11 am
To learn actual and correct Zen Buddhist methods of practice, one needs a true teacher, and a sangha to practice with.
Yeah, it is what is needed.
However, it is not what is practical.
When we live a life full of responsibilities, duties to others in our circle of family and friends that pull us to be there and do things they need.
desert_woodworker wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:11 am
Zen practice is (our) everyday, ordinary, life. Of course, the methods and practices we learn and practice together with our teacher and sangha are a part of this everyday life, but these methods and practices also bring our everyday life into focus as the ever-present "arena" in which we may truly practice, and in which we must (truly) practice.
When one sees the book of knowledge, opens the book and sees all the mirrors pointing back on oneself, life is anything but ordinary.

:112:

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Mason » Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:08 pm

My understanding (and please bear in mind that I am not presently in a Zen Buddhist practice situation, nor am I awakened):

There are three kinds of fabrication: body, speech, and mind. A teaching which advocates "no thought" can be confusing because "thinking" can be understood as either the voice in one's head, which is speech, or perception (interpretation, meaning-making, cognizing), which is mind.

Mind (which includes both perception and feeling) cannot be willfully stopped. It's like whack-a-mole. If you try to stop one perception, another perception arises. This can be incredibly subtle; even things like "infinite, unbounded awareness" are fabricated perceptions.

Speech (the voice in one's head which is assumed to be "my" voice) can be willfully stopped, but I think it's generally better to let it go naturally like clouds in the sky. When the inner voice disappears, there might be experienced a radiant, beautiful silence in the mind. The mind is naturally luminous but is obscured by vexations.

Only when the mind is totally let go, doing is totally let go, knowing is totally let go, does the mind actually stop. At which point it is revealed that one did not actually have any ownership of a mind to begin with. Just empty phenomena rolling on; the six senses and their objects, dust in the wind.

See: Potthapada Sutta
"The Way needs no cultivation, just do not defile. What is defilement? When with a mind of birth and death one acts in a contrived way, then everything is a defilement. If one wants to know the Way directly: Ordinary Mind is the Way!"

- Record of Ma-tsu

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Great Sage EofH » Wed May 01, 2019 5:14 am

Well, we certainly are having a lot of thoughts now.

The original topic has some interesting problems, there are actually meditation techniques which crush and grind out thinking utterly, and it's recorded in the Canon that the pre-enlightened Buddha was proficient in these. So in a Buddhist textual sense, it's not impossible or even improbable. It actually is one technique. But it does not liberate.

This is not what is meant by "no-thought" in Ch'an/Zen/etal. The yogic method is done by brute force. But here, we let go of thinking, let go of controlling it. Even the highly concentrated samadhi mind is not brought about by force. Neither does it force us to do or think anything either.

“If your mind is empty, it is always ready for anything, it is open to everything. In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's mind there are few. ”
― Shunryu Suzuki
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by clyde » Wed May 01, 2019 5:10 pm

Thank you. Great Sage is right.
We have gone far astray - and I’m the culprit!

I’ve moved the off-topic posts to “From dreams to actualization . . .”.

My apologies to Enver for highjacking his thread.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu May 02, 2019 3:29 pm

clyde wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 5:10 pm
We have gone far astray - and I’m the culprit!
No culprit: Navigator, into rich and interesting byways and highways.

"All roads lead to the Capital".

Cheers & Tnx,

--Joe

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