Mumonkan Case 5

Discussion of Zen Buddhism.
Spike
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by Spike » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:16 pm

avisitor wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:35 pm
lindama wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:50 pm
koans don't focus, they are alive
How can they be alive?
Aren't you alive?

Spike
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by Spike » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:48 pm

clyde wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:09 pm
The koan seems to focus on the man hanging from a tree by his teeth and the life-and-death question. But there is another person in the koan - the person who sees the man hanging from a tree by his teeth and asks the life-and-death question.

What sort of person sees a man hanging from a tree by his teeth and asks him a life-and-death question?
The proposer of the koan, adopting a persona, who describes this hypothetical example to the student. A compassionate teacher.

Seeker242
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by Seeker242 » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:55 pm

clyde wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:09 pm
The koan seems to focus on the man hanging from a tree by his teeth and the life-and-death question. But there is another person in the koan - the person who sees the man hanging from a tree by his teeth and asks the life-and-death question.

What sort of person sees a man hanging from a tree by his teeth and asks him a life-and-death question?
One in a made up story that isn't real! :lol: :D

What kind of zen master would decapitate a cat! :lol:

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[james]
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by [james] » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:18 am

Spike wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:48 pm
The proposer of the koan, adopting a persona, who describes this hypothetical example to the student. A compassionate teacher.
Oh, I thought it was for real.
Well it turns out he never answered that dubious question and his interrogator gave up and went away.
His distant descendant, interviewed here, continues to make good use of this particular meditation technique:

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/9k53 ... gara-falls

Spike
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by Spike » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:37 am

Here, you can only speak for yourself.

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[james]
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by [james] » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:43 am

Spike wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:37 am
Here, you can only speak for yourself.
Here?
Where is here?
There is no here.

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clyde
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by clyde » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:16 am

Spike wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:48 pm
clyde wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:09 pm
The koan seems to focus on the man hanging from a tree by his teeth and the life-and-death question. But there is another person in the koan - the person who sees the man hanging from a tree by his teeth and asks the life-and-death question.

What sort of person sees a man hanging from a tree by his teeth and asks him a life-and-death question?
The proposer of the koan, adopting a persona, who describes this hypothetical example to the student. A compassionate teacher.
🙏
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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loves' the unjust
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by loves' the unjust » Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:10 pm

I have an advice for all forum members : Put the practice summarize for in a few words in your mind.And just focus on that in every action.

I have done mine.
cooper

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lindama
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by lindama » Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:57 am

je ne sais quoi

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loves' the unjust
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by loves' the unjust » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:57 am

Scent of chrysanthemums ...
And in Nara
All the ancient Buddhas.
cooper

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loves' the unjust
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by loves' the unjust » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:28 pm

Je Ne Sais Quoi / Lyrics

I am standing strong,
I've overcome the sadness in my life
Now I look up and see the brightest sky above me And it's reflecting in your eyes

Je ne sais quoi, I know you have a special something
Je ne sais quoi, oh, something I just can't explain And when I see your face I wanna follow my emotions
Je ne sais pas, pourquoi?
cooper

avisitor
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by avisitor » Sun Jun 16, 2019 3:24 am

Spike wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:16 pm
avisitor wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:35 pm
lindama wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:50 pm
koans don't focus, they are alive
How can they be alive?
Aren't you alive?
Koans don't breath, eat, reproduce, or anything which is defined as life
Your question is simply unrelated to my question.
But, you may do as you please and see things as you want
That is what makes life interesting

Spike
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by Spike » Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:30 am

No doubt lindama has her own take on this. Life, in terms of a koan, may have different criteria than what you specify. For me, thoroughly taking in the koan, literally breathing Mu, for example, is life.

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Nothing
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by Nothing » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:18 pm

Caodemarte wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:12 am
Mason wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:00 pm
If the scriptures are equivalent to toilet paper and koans are esoteric and ineffable, what kinds of discussion would be appropriate for a Zen forum? ....always wondered about the concern of saying too much about a koan or in some way revealing the "answer." What does this have to do with the actual dynamics of practice?
Koans are literally “public cases,” court trials cited as precedent. They are the opposite of esoteric and ineffable, although they may appear that way due to cultural references which were really hip in the day, but almost completely obscure today to moderns (making them a dead literary form has come close to killing off the practice in the past). In actual practice a koan must be clear to the student so Kamakura era Zen teachers made up very simple direct koans for their samurai students with little knowledge of classical Chinese literature.

You cannot reveal the “answers,” unless you are indulging in koans as a literary form or intellectual amusement, anymore than you can supply the answer to any existential question (each “answer” must be very deeply individual and therefore universal). You can mislead others and yourself into deluding themselves or yourself and accepting a shallow understanding. Such discussions are considered pointless and distracting if not harmful in the tradition. They are considered an obstruction of real and sincere practice (granted such practice is not what all people are interested in). If you wish to practice sincerely it would seem wise to listen to the tradition’s advice oh how to do so or at least consider it.

So for a Zen forum discussions of the history of koans, of their form, of their evolution would be very appropriate and interesting for me (There are very interesting academic books on this), but not, God forbid, another “Internet Koan Discussion Group” where koans are like riddles with answers you find in a book. Others may be interested in such things. I am not the religious police, and no one has to follow my opinion. Again, your actions, how you practice, if you practice, are all your own call.
:560: :hatsoff:

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