Entry into Emptiness

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Caodemarte
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Re: Entry into Emptiness

Post by Caodemarte » Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:57 am

[james] wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:03 am
Caodemarte wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:05 am
Falling into emptiness or abiding in any state is one danger wise advice would help us avoid.
"Therefore, Ananda, you should train yourselves: 'We will enter & remain in the emptiness that is pure, superior, & unsurpassed.”

What do you refer to, Caodemarte, with “falling into emptiness”? I know that it is an oft repeated caution. What is the danger exactly? Is the emptiness that one might fall into, as opposed to enter, a false emptiness? If one has the capacity and good conditions to recognize, enter and dwell in emptiness, can that be false do you think?
My opinion in endless forests of opinion: “Falling into emptiness” (entering into a state where one sees that all is empty and trying to remain in or return to that temporary state) is not Buddhism or Buddhist practice. As you say, this is an oft repeated caution in orthodox Buddhism which does not contradict at all "Therefore, Ananda, you should train yourselves: 'We will enter & remain in the emptiness that is pure, superior, & unsurpassed.” in the fuller context of the historical Buddha's teachings or the following two thousand years of commentary and teaching in the mainstream traditions. Falling into any temporary state or experience and staying there or wallowing in it is a danger. Adhering to Emptiness or non-emptiness is a fundamental mistake.

Mahayana Buddhism repeatedly stresses that as long as you see a difference between emptiness and non-emptiness, have a view that enlightenment or emptiness is something one falls into or can enter into, believe that the view of samsara (here phenomenon) and seeing the dharma (here noumenon) are two different views or things (as in certain optical illusions where one can alternate seeing a woman's profile or a cup, but not at the same time) that one alternates, may or may not be helpful, even wholesome states, stages, or steps at certain points, but just that - mere states. They are also traps if one is caught there. One must drop all this, and not be caught by anything.

For a clear Zen reference look at the 10 Oxherding pictures. If one stops at the Enso/Won/Big Empty Circle picture one is making "enlightenment" itself a trap, just another state. Go all the way! Enlightenment or Emptiness is ordinary life. After all, "Nothing can move you further or closer to the Dharma" (Dahhui Puje, if menory serves, from The Letters of Chan Master Dahui Pujue, Broughton). Seeking or staying in some marvelous state will not do it either (in fact, it is part of the dis-ease or dukkha).

If you really enter ordinary life or if you really enter Emptiness or anything else, you will go through them and see how one abides in non-abiding or non-abides in abiding. Don’t attach to anything, including emptiness. That is what entering and abiding in true emptiness or “ordinary life” really is.

This reminds me of the old koan "All returns to the One. What doe the One return to?" Staying in the One or emptiness or anything else is not correct practice in Buddhism as I understand it.

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loves' the unjust
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Re: Entry into Emptiness

Post by loves' the unjust » Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:59 am

loves' the unjust wrote: O Enso
is the practice

enso is my magical word.
Here's the opening of my enso:

Vast Emptiness - Full Moon (or the full view)

Nothing Holy - draw a circle around the full moon

I don't know - clean the inside and remain the circle

this is enso

here's where I am in my practice

enso is to practice the teaching.

just nothing in mind.
cooper

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loves' the unjust
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Re: Entry into Emptiness

Post by loves' the unjust » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:16 am

loves' the unjust wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:22 pm
existence/peace
void
emptiness (I don't know)

is the teaching.

Vast emptiness
Nothing Holy
I don't know

here the peace gets mobility

O Enso
is the practice
or to put into practice

enso is my magical word.

What does it mean, required in the teaching
is (to) practice
practice is the empty mind
when there is empty mind dailylife remains

I tried to explain
cooper

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loves' the unjust
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Re: Entry into Emptiness

Post by loves' the unjust » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:47 am

The mindset of a Zen Master:

1-Vast Emptiness
I've explained this in the previous page

2-Nothing Holy
means no-thought

3-I don't know
by empty mind which brings the dailylife
always going forward


When the three unite you are a zen master
if you have this zen mind
///You need to do nothing!!!///
Last edited by loves' the unjust on Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
cooper

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loves' the unjust
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Re: Entry into Emptiness

Post by loves' the unjust » Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:00 pm

seems like being like an angel
but devil is an angel too
so i said that "Zen is %50 devil(ish) and %50 fighting with the devil"
cooper

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fuki
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Re: Entry into Emptiness

Post by fuki » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:47 pm

loves' the unjust wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:00 pm
seems like being like an angel
but devil is an angel too
so i said that "Zen is %50 devil(ish) and %50 fighting with the devil"
No that's just a brain story, apart from anything you've ever heared or learned, what do you really know? Angels and Devils are just entertainment for the child-(sperm)consciousness.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

Spike
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Re: Entry into Emptiness

Post by Spike » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:28 pm

loves’ the unjust wrote: enso is my magical word.
Magic is not in it.
loves’ the unjust wrote: The mindset of a Zen Master:

1-Vast Emptiness
I've explained this in the previous page

2-Nothing Holy
means no-thought

3-I don't know
by empty mind which brings the dailylife
always going forward
When the three unite you are a zen master
Entering samadhi does not make one a “zen master”.
loves’ the unjust wrote: What does it mean, required in the teaching
is (to) practice
practice is the empty mind
In Rinzai, in my understanding, practice, primarily zazen but also chanting, work, etc, can sometimes bring about samadhi, or empty mind.

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[james]
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Re: Entry into Emptiness

Post by [james] » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:37 pm

Spike wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:28 pm
In Rinzai, in my understanding, practice, primarily zazen but also chanting, work, etc, can sometimes bring about samadhi, or empty mind.
Is samadhi or empty mind an entry into emptiness, ie a platform or position by which we can examine the parameters (if any) of emptiness, as the sutta is describing (to my mind, at least)? Or, is samadhi or empty mind itself the experience of emptiness?

Caodemarte
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Re: Entry into Emptiness

Post by Caodemarte » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:21 am

In my understanding, in Rinzai or Soto (and other forms of Zen) samadhi is not usually used to mean "empty mind" or at least not more than anything else. Definitions and usage vary, particularly across the ages and cultures, but in Zen in "modern" times samadhi usually refers to state of concentration or focus. Somewhere Bankei defines one relatively light level of samadhi as being the state you are in when talking to a friend while walking through a crowded street.
Here is a useful approach to the meaning of samadhi and dhyana from a practice perspective:
https://beingwithoutself.files.wordpres ... utself.pdf

Spike
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Re: Entry into Emptiness

Post by Spike » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:55 pm

[james] wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:37 pm
Spike wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:28 pm
In Rinzai, in my understanding, practice, primarily zazen but also chanting, work, etc, can sometimes bring about samadhi, or empty mind.
Is samadhi or empty mind an entry into emptiness, ie a platform or position by which we can examine the parameters (if any) of emptiness, as the sutta is describing (to my mind, at least)? Or, is samadhi or empty mind itself the experience of emptiness?
Samadhi is a state of concentration or focus, as Caodemarte states.

The Jeff Shore piece looks helpful in superficial review. I wish I had the sustained concentration to appreciate it more fully.

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loves' the unjust
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Re: Entry into Emptiness

Post by loves' the unjust » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:46 am

For a Better Understanding :

1-
existence/peace 
void
emptiness (I don't know)

is the teaching.

Vast emptiness
Nothing Holy
I don't know

here the peace gets mobility


2)
O Enso
is to practice

enso is my magical word.

Here's the opening of my enso:

Vast Emptiness - Full Moon (or the full view)

Nothing Holy - draw a circle around the full moon

I don't know - clean the inside and remain the circle

this is enso

here's where I am in my practice

enso is to practice the teaching.

just nothing in mind.
(Empty mind)

3-
Empty Mind

What does it mean, required in the teaching is (to) practice
practice is the empty mind
when there is empty mind dailylife remains

4-
Daily life
cooper

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[james]
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Re: Entry into Emptiness

Post by [james] » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:48 pm

Caodemarte wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:21 am
Here is a useful approach to the meaning of samadhi and dhyana from a practice perspective:
https://beingwithoutself.files.wordpres ... utself.pdf
Thanks for the link. (in part) a teisho, talk, discourse on the Cula-suññata Sutta, it seems to me, though he doesn’t mention it in the endnotes.

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Entry into Emptiness

Post by desert_woodworker » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:11 am

Spike wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:31 pm
Really, my point is not everyone has access to in-person teacher or sangha relations. That does not mean one should not do zazen under such circumstances, or that their practice deserves to be judged as any less, or judged at all, as to what is correct or sufficient.
Sure. Access is just that. Got "access"? Yes?, no?

"People of the past" sailed miles over seas for the Dharma. Or drove/drive from here to there in their gas-powered infernal-combustion vehicles to meet advanced-practitioners and their sanghas (Teachers, among them).

No one judges others' zazen (except their teacher). Fortunately, teachers do this, helpfully. Teachers can give major corrections, and minor ones. And encouragement(s). And challenges.

Lucky.

And teachers can supply the environment in which intensive practice is available and safe, and in which people may thus have a good opportunity to awaken. Awakening happens almost never, otherwise. And, in the Ch'an/Zen Buddhist tradition, awakening is tested and confirmed by the teacher, for safety, and out of all compassion for the practitioner and for all beings.

But, Emptiness, emptiness, in concert with this thread's theme: yes, this is experienced when practice has suddenly yielded no-mind. That is, the death of deluded mind.

Strong practice, All,

--Joe

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loves' the unjust
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Re: Entry into Emptiness

Post by loves' the unjust » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:01 pm

Joe--,

Nothing has an importance out of the practice?
cooper

Spike
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Re: Entry into Emptiness

Post by Spike » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:21 am


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lindama
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Re: Entry into Emptiness

Post by lindama » Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:49 am

dear ones, the best we can do is stop keeping score. And, if you ask me, practice gets too much credit.

Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow.
Just walk beside me and be my friend. Albert Camus

Spike
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Re: Entry into Emptiness

Post by Spike » Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:38 am

lindama wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:49 am
And, if you ask me, practice gets too much credit.
Don't walk behind me; I may not lead . . .
loves' the unjust wrote: enso is to practice the teaching
A student should not have to lead on a question of practice if a definitive teacher-level response is the appropriate one. Following is equally dangerous. So that indeed leaves us all side-by-side, lacking resolution on many questions, offering opinions only (hopefully), on the same playing field here, unless: one is not a student, to begin with.

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