Fruit Flies

Anything at all goes here. Keep it clean.
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fuki
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by fuki » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:41 am

Seeker242 wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:03 pm
I don't believe your observations that animals can practice and I never...
I never said that, please stop putting words into my mouth.
I said - memory-quote - that I couldn't say that they can or cannot,
[SPOILER]
even though humans are mammals :cat:
but I cannot rule out the possibility, nor have I ever said that what Buddhism teaches is "wrong" I simply said that if a teacher says that animals can't "practise" it might be due to a myriad of expedient reasons, or perhaps it is so in 100% of the cases, I only said that I can't confirm or deny it, I'm open to all possibilities, I have a lot to say regarding why religion says what it says, out of respect for this forum and certain 'traditional' people I'm not even going there, but please don't put word into my mouth, especially where you imply me denying Buddhist teachings (and/or it's function) or me trying to convince you of anything, I don't know what the practise of communication is in your area/culture, but when we speak here (locally) it is simply to share observation points, it is never about trying to convince or make people believe anything, we already got religious models for that :P
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by Seeker242 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:45 am

fuki wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:41 am
Seeker242 wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:03 pm
I don't believe your observations that animals can practice and I never...
I never said that, please stop putting words into my mouth.
I said - memory-quote - that I couldn't say that they can or cannot,
but I cannot rule out the possibility, nor have I ever said that what Buddhism teaches is "wrong" I simply said that if a teacher says that animals can't "practise" it might be due to a myriad of expedient reasons, or perhaps it is so in 100% of the cases, I only said that I can't confirm or deny it, I'm open to all possibilities, I have a lot to say regarding why religion says what it says, out of respect for this forum and certain 'traditional' people I'm not even going there, but please don't put word into my mouth, especially where you imply me denying Buddhist teachings (and/or it's function) or me trying to convince you of anything, I don't know what the practise of communication is in your area/culture, but when we speak here (locally) it is simply to share observation points, it is never about trying to convince or make people believe anything, we already got religious models for that :P
I was discussing this with another person and you accused me of "talking past people's observations", which isn't true. And then accused me of "return to a loophole which was never a point of reference", which isn't true either. I was discussing what Buddhism teaches regarding animals practicing, because someone asked me about it, and have been since then and what Buddhism teaches is the point of reference. If you don't like the way it was phrased, here is a rephrasing:

People are free to make all the observations they want. However, if someone is going to try tell me that their own observations are true, when they are contrary to actual Buddhist teaching, it is entirely reasonable for me to not accept any of those observations. Feel free to believe whatever they like. But if anyone is going to try and convince me to believe it too, well that just will never happen. Especially so when it's contrary to actual Buddhist teaching. I don't believe any observations that animals can practice and I never will no matter what anyone here says, which is completely and perfectly reasonable on my part.

Buddhism teaches that animals cannot practice, there is no if, ands or buts about this, as evidenced by Sheng Yen's talk posted above, and various other masters throughout history as well as various scriptures, etc. There is no maybe/maybe not either. I am not "talking past people's observations". People's observations are not relevant to what Buddhism teaches, especially so when they are contrary to actual Buddhist teaching. You also insinuated that believing actual buddhist teaching literally, regarding animals not practicing, might somehow be inappropriate. As if it is somehow inappropriate to not be "open to all possibilities". It is not and never will be inappropriate, regardless of what anyone else's observations are. If you want to believe "maybe/maybe not" regarding animals practicing, that's fine. However, it's also perfectly fine, and perfectly reasonable, for me to believe "not", because that's what Buddhism teaches.

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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by [james] » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:29 pm

Seeker242 wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:45 am
....
Buddhism teaches that animals cannot practice, there is no if, ands or buts about this, as evidenced by Sheng Yen's talk posted above, and various other masters throughout history as well as various scriptures, etc. There is no maybe/maybe not either. I am not "talking past people's observations". People's observations are not relevant to what Buddhism teaches, ....
What benefit arises to human Buddhists from holding these views, ie., how does holding these views contribute to the ending of suffering for the one who holds them and, as well, for beings in the animal and other realms who come into contact with the view holder?

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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by Spike » Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:18 pm

.
Last edited by Spike on Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by loves' the unjust » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:10 pm

Thinking the same a few minutes ago.

:559:
cooper

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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by Spike » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:12 pm

[james] wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:29 pm
Seeker242 wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:45 am
....
Buddhism teaches that animals cannot practice, there is no if, ands or buts about this, as evidenced by Sheng Yen's talk posted above, and various other masters throughout history as well as various scriptures, etc. There is no maybe/maybe not either. I am not "talking past people's observations". People's observations are not relevant to what Buddhism teaches, ....
[james] wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:29 pm
What benefit arises to human Buddhists from holding these views,
Here, I believe karma would come into play.
[james] wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:29 pm
ie., how does holding these views contribute to the ending of suffering for the one who holds them and, as well, for beings in the animal and other realms who come into contact with the view holder?
Right Understanding (View)

"Right understanding is the understanding of things as they are, and it is the four noble truths that explain things as they really are. Right understanding therefore is ultimately reduced to the understanding of the four noble truths. This understanding is the highest wisdom which sees the Ultimate Reality. According to Buddhism there are two sorts of understanding. What we generally call “understanding” is knowledge, an accumulated memory, an intellectual grasping of a subject according to certain given data. This is called “knowing accordingly” (anubodha). It is not very deep. Real deep understanding or “penetration” (pativedha) is seeing a thing in its true nature, without name and label. This penetration is possible only when the mind is free from all impurities and is fully developed through meditation."

"seeing a thing in its true nature, without name and label"

--Tricycle

As we know, in Buddhism, the practice is always for the benefit of all beings (Shujo mu hen sei gan do).
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by Seeker242 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:28 am

[james] wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:29 pm
What benefit arises to human Buddhists from holding these views, ie., how does holding these views contribute to the ending of suffering for the one who holds them and, as well, for beings in the animal and other realms who come into contact with the view holder?
The best benefit is motivation to practice diligently and earnestly in order to not waste the precious human opportunity and get enlightenment. Which by default, helps all beings in all realms.

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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by fuki » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:48 pm

Spike wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:12 pm

Here, I believe karma would come into play.
Since the workings of "karma" are beyond human grasp the expedient of "karma" the 32 planes and all Buddhist teachings are expedients according to primitive causes and conditions, aka - humanity.
"seeing a thing in its true nature, without name and label"

--Tricycle
"To contemplate the unreal nature of all things,
there is nothing real.
Various names arise due to the coincidence of
causes and conditions which are unreal.
When one sees the truth of emptiness,
one will realize that there is no Dharma
(the perverted view of existence)
and non-Dharma
(the perverted view of extinction)."

***SAMYUKTAGAMA SUTRA
As we know, in Buddhism, the practice is always for the benefit of all beings (Shujo mu hen sei gan do).
“The Tathagata has said that all notions are not notions and that all living beings are not living beings. Subhuti, the Tathagata is one who speaks of things as they are, speaks what is true, and speaks in accord with reality. He does not speak deceptively or to please people. Subhuti, if we say that the Tathagata has realized a teaching, that teaching is neither graspable nor deceptive.

“Subhuti, a bodhisattva who still depends on notions to practice generosity is like someone walking in the dark. She will not see anything. But when a bodhisattva does not depend on notions to practice generosity, she is like someone with good eyesight walking under the bright light of the sun. She can see all shapes and colors.

“Subhuti, do not say that the Tathagata has the idea, ‘I will bring living beings to the shore of liberation.’ Do not think that way, Subhuti. Why? In truth there is not one single being for the Tathagata to bring to the other shore. If the Tathagata were to think there was, he would be caught in the idea of a self, a person, a living being, or a life span. Subhuti, what the Tathagata calls a self essentially has no self in the way that ordinary persons think there is a self. Subhuti, the Tathagata does not regard anyone as an ordinary person. That is why he can call them ordinary persons.
Diamond Sutra.

So much for "fruitflies" and "humans" :hatsoff:
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by fuki » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:54 pm

[james] wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:29 pm

What benefit arises to human Buddhists from holding these views, ie., how does holding these views contribute to the ending of suffering for the one who holds them and, as well, for beings in the animal and other realms who come into contact with the view holder?
To hold views (as truth) is a perversion and ironically a disservice to Buddhism, views only expediently arise due to causes and conditions, hence 'holding' a view as truth in itself is merely for one's own entertainment (disguised as something spiritual) views can be of great (temp) service, there is no (in particular) one who benefits from it, that would be another perversion ;)
:hatsoff:
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by fuki » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:56 pm

Seeker242 wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:45 am
However, it's also perfectly fine, and perfectly reasonable, for me to believe "not", because that's what Buddhism teaches.
Ofcourse Brother. :115:

All the philosophical theories that exist have been created by the mistaken dualistic minds of human beings. In the realm of philosophy, that which today is considered true, may tomorrow be proved to be false. No one can guarantee a philosophy's validity. Because of this, any intellectual way of seeing whatever is always partial and relative. The fact is that there is no truth to seek or to confirm logically; rather what one needs to do is to discover just how much the mind continually limits itself in a condition of dualism.

Dualism is the real root of our suffering and of all our conflicts. All our concepts and beliefs, no matter how profound they may seem, are like nets which trap us in dualism. When we discover our limits we have to try to overcome them, untying ourselves from whatever type of religious, political or social conviction may condition us. We have to abandon such concepts as 'enlightenment', 'the nature of the mind', and so on, until we are no longer satisfied by a merely intellectual knowledge, and until we no longer neglect to integrate our knowledge with our actual existence.”
― Chögyal Namkhai Norbu, Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by Seeker242 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:02 am

fuki wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:56 pm
Seeker242 wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:45 am
However, it's also perfectly fine, and perfectly reasonable, for me to believe "not", because that's what Buddhism teaches.
All the philosophical theories that exist have been created by the mistaken dualistic minds of human beings.
The fact that animals cannot practice is not a philosophy. It is a fact that the Buddha taught and the Buddha is not mistaken.

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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by fuki » Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:26 am

Seeker242 wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:02 am


The fact that animals cannot practice is not a philosophy. It is a fact that the Buddha taught and the Buddha is not mistaken.
I hear you mammal :P
Whatever the Buddha taught (2500 year old ink!) ofcourse was taught depending on causes and conditions of the time, he might have never met a non-human animal who realized its true nature. Again no issues with what you say but teachings to me are according to causes and conditions, they do not stand in themselves, which ofcourse would be silly for that would be contrary to the three marks of existence to say that anything that arises (aka the dharma) has any substance or self-nature.
[SPOILER]
The infinite vast expanse is one’s own inconceivable nature. Who can say who has realized it and who hasn’t? When we travel around the world or experience other dimensions, there are so many beings who have tasted it. We can see it in their behavior, in their countenance, and in stories that are told—not just in the Dzogchen tradition or the Buddhist tradition, but in any tradition, and in our Western world too.This true nature is so vast and inconceivable that even some birds and animals and beings in other unseen dimensions can be said to have realized it, as in some of the ancient Indian Jataka stories and other teaching tales. It is always said that everything is the self-radiant display of the primordial Buddha Samantabhadra. There are infinite numbers of Buddhas and infinite numbers of beings. Who can say who is excluded from it? (from the book Natural Great Perfection: Dzogchen Teachings And Vajra Songs)
Again I'm not suggesting or saying that the Buddha or Buddhism is "wrong" about anything, but anyone might fabricate it as so ofcourse, sigh.
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by Seeker242 » Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:56 am

fuki wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:26 am

Whatever the Buddha taught (2500 year old ink!) ofcourse was taught depending on causes and conditions of the time,
And Sheng Yen was teaching it 15 years ago, so obviously he disagrees. This is not "depending on causes and conditions of the time, " That is why the wise men, from all the 3 turnings of the wheel, agree that it is true. That is why Sheng Yen says this is the case.
he might have never met a non-human animal who realized its true nature. Again no issues with what you say but teachings to me are according to causes and conditions, they do not stand in themselves, which ofcourse would be silly for that would be contrary to the three marks of existence to say that anything that arises (aka the dharma) has any substance or self-nature.
Talk of substance or self nature isn't relevant. Neither of those changes anything.
The infinite vast expanse is one’s own inconceivable nature. Who can say who has realized it and who hasn’t?
Nearly everyone...Buddha, Dogen, Sheng Yen, etc, etc, etc,
Again I'm not suggesting or saying that the Buddha or Buddhism is "wrong" about anything, but anyone might fabricate it as so ofcourse, sigh.
That's unreasonable and illogical. If you say maybe animals can practice and Dogen, Sheng Yen, etc. says they cannot. Then you are, by default, saying maybe Dogen and Shen yen are wrong. It's unreasonable, illogical and nonsensical to suggest otherwise.

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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by [james] » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:59 pm

https://sacred-texts.com/bud/bear.htm

SMOKEY THE BEAR SUTRA (1969)
BY GARY SNYDER

Once in the Jurassic about 150 million years ago, the Great Sun Buddha in this corner of the Infinite Void gave a discourse to all the assembled elements and energies: to the standing beings, the walking beings, the flying beings, and the sitting beings--even the grasses, to the number of thirteen billion, each one born from a seed, assembled there: a Discourse concerning Enlightenment on the planet Earth.

"In some future time, there will be a continent called America. It will have great centers of power called such as Pyramid Lake, Walden Pond, Mt. Rainier, Big Sur, Everglades, and so forth; and powerful nerves and channels such as Columbia River, Mississippi River, and Grand Canyon. The human race in that era will get into troubles all over its head, and practically wreck everything in spite of its own strong intelligent Buddha-nature."

"The twisting strata of the great mountains and the pulsings of volcanoes are my love burning deep in the earth. My obstinate compassion is schist and basalt and granite, to be mountains, to bring down the rain. In that future American Era I shall enter a new form; to cure the world of loveless knowledge that seeks with blind hunger: and mindless rage eating food that will not fill it."

And he showed himself in his true form of

SMOKEY THE BEAR

A handsome smokey-colored brown bear standing on his hind legs, showing that he is aroused and watchful.

Bearing in his right paw the Shovel that digs to the truth beneath appearances; cuts the roots of useless attachments, and flings damp sand on the fires of greed and war;

His left paw in the mudra of Comradely Display--indicating that all creatures have the full right to live to their limits and that of deer, rabbits, chipmunks, snakes, dandelions, and lizards all grow in the realm of the Dharma;

Wearing the blue work overalls symbolic of slaves and laborers, the countless men oppressed by a civilization that claims to save but often destroys;

Wearing the broad-brimmed hat of the west, symbolic of the forces that guard the wilderness, which is the Natural State of the Dharma and the true path of man on Earth:

all true paths lead through mountains--

With a halo of smoke and flame behind, the forest fires of the kali-yuga, fires caused by the stupidity of those who think things can be gained and lost whereas in truth all is contained vast and free in the Blue Sky and Green Earth of One Mind;

Round-bellied to show his kind nature and that the great earth has food enough for everyone who loves her and trusts her;

Trampling underfoot wasteful freeways and needless suburbs, smashing the worms of capitalism and totalitarianism;

Indicating the task: his followers, becoming free of cars, houses, canned foods, universities, and shoes, master the Three Mysteries of their own Body, Speech, and Mind; and fearlessly chop down the rotten trees and prune out the sick limbs of this country America and then burn the leftover trash.

Wrathful but calm. Austere but Comic. Smokey the Bear will Illuminate those who would help him; but for those who would hinder or slander him...

HE WILL PUT THEM OUT.

Thus his great Mantra:

Namah samanta vajranam chanda maharoshana Sphataya hum traka ham mam

"I DEDICATE MYSELF TO THE UNIVERSAL DIAMOND BE THIS RAGING FURY BE DESTROYED"

And he will protect those who love the woods and rivers, Gods and animals, hobos and madmen, prisoners and sick people, musicians, playful women, and hopeful children:

And if anyone is threatened by advertising, air pollution, television, or the police, they should chant SMOKEY THE BEAR'S WAR SPELL:

DROWN THEIR BUTTS

CRUSH THEIR BUTTS

DROWN THEIR BUTTS

CRUSH THEIR BUTTS

And SMOKEY THE BEAR will surely appear to put the enemy out with his vajra-shovel.

Now those who recite this Sutra and then try to put it in practice will accumulate merit as countless as the sands of Arizona and Nevada.

Will help save the planet Earth from total oil slick.
Will enter the age of harmony of man and nature.
Will win the tender love and caresses of men, women, and beasts.
Will always have ripened blackberries to eat and a sunny spot under a pine tree to sit at.

AND IN THE END WILL WIN HIGHEST PERFECT ENLIGHTENMENT

...thus we have heard...

(may be reproduced free forever)

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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by fuki » Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:52 pm

Seeker242 wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:56 am
" That is why the wise men, from all the 3 turnings of the wheel, agree that it is true. That is why Sheng Yen says this is the case.
And from where come all these wise men? Would you suggest there is a world independent from your mind where books and wise man (dream characters) can inform you what is true and what is not?
That's unreasonable and illogical. If you say maybe animals can practice and Dogen, Sheng Yen, etc. says they cannot. Then you are, by default, saying maybe Dogen and Shen yen are wrong. It's unreasonable, illogical and nonsensical to suggest otherwise.
Logic? Everything that ever appeared, whatever happens is a figment of dreaming, all the wise men are conditional appearances, imaginary creations... "they" (Buddha, Dogen, Sheng Yen, etc, etc, etc,) all nod their head when I say, there is no truth, only dreaming. :cat:

ps differences are never in opposition, whatever can be confirmed or denied (by the wise men) are always untruths, Truth cannot be confirmed or denied. The words of the wise are about correct function. Buddhist (Zen) practise in itself is cultivating illusion (or illusory wisdom) to end delusion, it's not about gaining truths or speaking of truths, and correct function is dependend on causes and conditions, so if you would ask "Buddha, Dogen, Sheng Yen, etc, etc, etc," or I would ask them, do you think the answer will be the same? Ofcourse not, the answer would be dependend on what would function correctly.
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by Spike » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:48 pm

fuki wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:52 pm
Buddhist (Zen) practise in itself is cultivating illusion (or illusory wisdom) to end delusion
This is false. Prajna wisdom is not illusory.
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by fuki » Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:28 pm

Spike wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:48 pm
fuki wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:52 pm
Buddhist (Zen) practise in itself is cultivating illusion (or illusory wisdom) to end delusion
This is false. Prajna wisdom is not illusory.
All words are false! (but can function correctly)
All Bodhisattvas cultivate illusory wisdom (expedient means)
since prajna is a dharma, I therefore (for communication purposes) say it is illusory.
What is not illusory is only "that" where desire and knowledge have no appearance/ground, and since we're speaking about Buddhist knowledge on this forum, and prajna, since it arises, it "is" illusory, it's not another "right/wrong" debate I feel like entertaining, when I say it's illusory it's said in function, prajna is a dharma, dharma= arising, arising=illusion, to say one things is an illusion and another is not is ofcourse an illusion, in reality there is neither illusion nor non-illusion, any such ideas are from the illusory mind. Another example that all so called "knowledge" only has expedient function.
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by Spike » Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:22 pm

Horsepuckie. Insight is not illusion.
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by fuki » Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:44 pm

Spike wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:22 pm
Horsepuckie. Insight is not illusion.
Just because you value it does not make it any other then it is, illusory, since insights are transient.
Sure some insights can purify, but all insights are illusory, perhaps it's because of ppl's attachment to their insights and "wisdoms" that they think there are illusory and real insights. The real lies beyond all insights, experiences etc.
To call insights (however 'sublime') real, implies that reality/truth etc is an acquisition, what comes, goes, insights too. Whatever is transient is illusory, ofcourse that includes Buddhadharma :cat:
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by Spike » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:14 pm

fuki wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:44 pm
Spike wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:22 pm
Horsepuckie. Insight is not illusion.
Just because you value it does not make it any other then it is, illusory, since insights are transient.
No value is attached to prajna wisdom. Insight is transformative, and therefore not transient.
fuki wrote: Sure some insights can purify, but all insights are illusory, perhaps it's because of ppl's attachment to their insights and "wisdoms" that they think there are illusory and real insights. The real lies beyond all insights, experiences etc.
This is not my understanding of zen Buddhism. But it may be because of my own formal practice experience.
fuki wrote: To call insights (however 'sublime') real, implies that reality/truth etc is an acquisition, what comes, goes, insights too.
Absolutely not! It is an elemental realization that has nothing to do with an acquisition, because it was there all the time!!
fuki wrote: Whatever is transient is illusory, ofcourse that includes Buddhadharma :cat:
That would be correct only if buddhanature did Not pervade the whole universe.
Last edited by Spike on Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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