Zen Practice (Emptiness Concept)

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loves' the unjust
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Zen Practice (Emptiness Concept)

Post by loves' the unjust » Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:28 am

Zen practice is zazen.

Until understanding the teaching which one should practice.

Count up to ten or eleven main practice is zazen.

When understand the teaching that should be put into dailylife.

Is it that hard to understand?

any supportive thoughts welcome..
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Nothing
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Re: Zen Practice

Post by Nothing » Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:34 am

Hi Enver

For start just sit in zazen and follow your breath.The falling and rising of the belly.
I do not count so can't recommend that.

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Re: Zen Practice

Post by [james] » Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:03 pm

loves' the unjust wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:28 am
Zen practice is zazen.
This says to me that you see zen practice as zazen only, and with this I don’t agree. Had you said that zazen is zen practice I would concur.
Until understanding the teaching which one should practice.
Don’t understand your meaning here.
Count up to ten or eleven main practice is zazen.
Does counting underly all expressions of zazen?
When understand the teaching that should be put into dailylife.
Maybe. In fact the teachings, zen, and daily life are inseparable.
Is it that hard to understand?
It can be and often is.

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Re: Zen Practice

Post by Spike » Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:22 am

[james] wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:03 pm
In fact the teachings, zen, and daily life are inseparable.
loves' the unjust wrote:Is it that hard to understand?
[james] wrote: It can be and often is.
This is exactly right. An intellectual approach to "understanding" zen is futile.
Meido Moore's monastery and contact info:
www.korinji.org

Genjo Marinello's temple and contact info:
https://choboji.org/

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Re: Zen Practice

Post by loves' the unjust » Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:40 am

Thank you.
[james] wrote: This says to me that you see zen practice as zazen only, and with this I don’t agree. Had you said that zazen is zen practice I would concur.
Myriad practices come forth from zazen.

Does counting underly all expressions of zazen?
Don't understand your meaning here.Maybe.
Spike wrote: This is exactly right. An intellectual approach to "understanding" zen is futile.
What i mean with understanding the teaching is the same with what has been said in the
ten bulls pic 2 comment.
which begins with "Understanding the teaching..."
cooper

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Re: Zen Practice

Post by [james] » Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:34 pm

loves' the unjust wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:40 am
Thank you.
[james] wrote: This says to me that you see zen practice as zazen only, and with this I don’t agree. Had you said that zazen is zen practice I would concur.
Myriad practices come forth from zazen.

Does counting underly all expressions of zazen?
Don't understand your meaning here.Maybe.
You originally said that counting is the main practice in zazen (“Count up to ten or eleven main practice is zazen.”) You also say that myriad practices come forth from zazen.
Let me ask you then to describe how the technique of counting supports the coming forth of myriad practices.

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Re: Zen Practice

Post by Spike » Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:12 pm

loves' the unjust wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:40 am

What i mean with understanding the teaching is the same with what has been said in the
ten bulls pic 2 comment.
which begins with "Understanding the teaching..."
"2. Seeing the Footprints

A tangle of thorny bushes: the faint murmur of running water.

But here and there are footprints—Is this the right path?

If you want to pierce its nose and tie it up, do not rely on someone else’s strength!"

Following are comments from Tricycle on the second ox-herding picture:

In this picture, the oxherder finally sees some footprints. It represents the stage when we decide to do something about the dissatisfaction. We look around for something. We discuss philosophy, read about psychology and various states of consciousness. We hear about meditation and Buddhism or Zen. We might have a friend who is practicing or we might listen to a talk by a Zen teacher. We like the idea of liberation and awakening or the quirkiness of the koan.

We are attracted to the Zen stories but we stop there. We just read about it. So, very little changes; we continue to have the same sufferings, the same disturbing emotions, and the same negative patterns. Reading or hearing about Zen only is not going to make a great difference in our lives. The other question this picture raises is: Are the footprints old or new? Is this Zen teaching and meditation relevant to us now or is it only for ancient Zen masters in China?

{Italics mine]

Here and on other sites, I don't see any reference to your quote: "Understanding the teaching . . . " in comments. ?

spring 2001_33-2
Meido Moore's monastery and contact info:
www.korinji.org

Genjo Marinello's temple and contact info:
https://choboji.org/

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Re: Zen Practice

Post by loves' the unjust » Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:45 pm

[james] wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:34 pm
You originally said that counting is the main practice in zazen
I didn't say counting is the main practice in zazen.
actually, i meaned the opposite.
(“Count up to ten or eleven main practice is zazen.”)
i mean to say there it doesn't matter how much you count + plus what only matters is the zazen
(mind)
how you are reading friend?
pls re-read
You also say that myriad practices come forth from zazen.
Let me ask you then to describe how the technique of counting supports the coming forth of myriad practices.
the buddha lived many centuries ago.
Approximately 2500 years ago.
i believe the budhism is the first MAIN faith or religion in the human history.
i don't know if with the same time with the invention of the wheel or not human discover the zazen.
high possibility that he couldn't be able to get out of the cave because of the bad wheather or so
by sitting alone all the time with have nothing to do of anything he discovered it.
by doing nothing.
(these are my thoughts)
but it is said that ALL the other religions', faiths'
and all the other spiritual practices have flourished from zazen.
cooper

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Re: Zen Practice

Post by loves' the unjust » Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:59 pm

Spike wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:12 pm
loves' the unjust wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:40 am

What i mean with understanding the teaching is the same with what has been said in the
ten bulls pic 2 comment.
which begins with "Understanding the teaching..."
"2. Seeing the Footprints

A tangle of thorny bushes: the faint murmur of running water.

But here and there are footprints—Is this the right path?

If you want to pierce its nose and tie it up, do not rely on someone else’s strength!"

Following are comments from Tricycle on the second ox-herding picture:

In this picture, the oxherder finally sees some footprints. It represents the stage when we decide to do something about the dissatisfaction. We look around for something. We discuss philosophy, read about psychology and various states of consciousness. We hear about meditation and Buddhism or Zen. We might have a friend who is practicing or we might listen to a talk by a Zen teacher. We like the idea of liberation and awakening or the quirkiness of the koan.

We are attracted to the Zen stories but we stop there. We just read about it. So, very little changes; we continue to have the same sufferings, the same disturbing emotions, and the same negative patterns. Reading or hearing about Zen only is not going to make a great difference in our lives. The other question this picture raises is: Are the footprints old or new? Is this Zen teaching and meditation relevant to us now or is it only for ancient Zen masters in China?

{Italics mine]

Here and on other sites, I don't see any reference to your quote: "Understanding the teaching . . . " in comments. ?

spring 2001_33-2

Where are you reading friend?
here is the original translation:
http://www.expressionsofspirit.com/10bulls/tenbulls.htm
can you share of your source?
I don't know what you mean with asking if the footprints are old or new.but i hope to understand.
if you feel ancient or old like me the teaching is always there for you.
cooper

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Re: Zen Practice

Post by Spike » Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:23 pm

loves' the unjust wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:59 pm
Where are you reading friend? . . . can you share of your source?
spike wrote:Following are comments from Tricycle on the second ox-herding picture:
spring 2001_33-2
https://tricycle.org/magazine/ten-oxherding-pictures/
loves' the unjust wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:59 pm
I don't know what you mean with asking if the footprints are old or new.but i hope to understand.
if you feel ancient or old like me the teaching is always there for you.
Not me asking. That is a quote from the commentary in Tricycle.

I think the comments you quoted about understanding the teaching perfectly align with where you are at in zen, and where you have been.

But in my experience, only practice can fully enable understanding of the teaching, not to mention validate it.
Meido Moore's monastery and contact info:
www.korinji.org

Genjo Marinello's temple and contact info:
https://choboji.org/

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Re: Zen Practice

Post by loves' the unjust » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:55 am

Spike wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:23 pm
I think the comments you quoted about understanding the teaching perfectly align with where you are at in zen, and where you have been.
Correct.
But in my experience, only practice can fully enable understanding of the teaching, not to mention validate it.
yes i tooks a long time.yet i'm working on it.

thnk you
any advice would be appreciated
cooper

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Re: Zen Practice

Post by loves' the unjust » Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:23 am

Spike wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:23 pm
Following are comments from Tricycle on the second ox-herding picture:
spring 2001_33-2

https://tricycle.org/magazine/ten-oxherding-pictures/
Whose comment/translation is it?
cooper

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Re: Zen Practice

Post by Spike » Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:20 pm

loves' the unjust wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:55 am
thnk you
any advice would be appreciated
Re: Zen Practice

Post by Nothing » Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:34 am:
Hi Enver

For start just sit in zazen and follow your breath.The falling and rising of the belly.
I do not count so can't recommend that.
There are references to two very good teachers in signature at bottom.

In other words, doing zazen and consulting with a teacher would be best advice for most, imo.

But I would not recommend either to you, or that you should seek advice here, although there should be no harm in doing so.

Just keep being yourself. Enjoy convos and friendships here, explore, salve any loneliness, etc. You already have a practice.
Meido Moore's monastery and contact info:
www.korinji.org

Genjo Marinello's temple and contact info:
https://choboji.org/

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Re: Zen Practice

Post by loves' the unjust » Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:33 pm

Thank you for your kindness of to answer.
cooper

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Re: Zen Practice

Post by loves' the unjust » Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:45 pm

I'm coming this time more powerful.
cooper

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Re: Zen Practice

Post by Spike » Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:53 pm

loves' the unjust wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:45 pm
[james] wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:34 pm
You originally said that counting is the main practice in zazen
I didn't say counting is the main practice in zazen.
actually, i meaned the opposite.
(“Count up to ten or eleven main practice is zazen.”)

i mean to say there it doesn't matter how much you count + plus what only matters is the zazen
(mind)
how you are reading friend?
pls re-read
This is so disrespectful and also false. No rereading is needed. It is clear what you said:
(“Count up to ten or eleven main practice is zazen.”)
Then you said:
loves' the unjust wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:45 pm
actually, i meaned the opposite.
!!!
loves' the unjust wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:45 pm
i don't know if with the same time with the invention of the wheel or not human discover the zazen.
high possibility that he couldn't be able to get out of the cave because of the bad wheather or so
by sitting alone all the time with have nothing to do of anything he discovered it.
by doing nothing.
(these are my thoughts)
but it is said that ALL the other religions', faiths'
and all the other spiritual practices have flourished from zazen.
Complete, total, 100% bs.

But very entertaining! Unless you're the respondent trying to get a coherent answer.
Meido Moore's monastery and contact info:
www.korinji.org

Genjo Marinello's temple and contact info:
https://choboji.org/

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Re: Zen Practice

Post by [james] » Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:53 am

Spike wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:53 pm
loves' the unjust wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:45 pm
[james] wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:34 pm
You originally said that counting is the main practice in zazen
I didn't say counting is the main practice in zazen.
actually, i meaned the opposite.
(“Count up to ten or eleven main practice is zazen.”)

i mean to say there it doesn't matter how much you count + plus what only matters is the zazen
(mind)

how you are reading friend?
pls re-read
This is so disrespectful and also false. No rereading is needed. It is clear what you said:
(“Count up to ten or eleven main practice is zazen.”)
Your comments, Spike, have prompted me to give it a re-read.
As I understand LTU’s statement now is as he clarified above. Something like: Count up to ten (or whatever) while keeping in mind that the main practice is zazen.

My question to Enver is whether counting up to ten (or whatever number] is a lesser practice or is even a zen practice at all.

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Re: Zen Practice

Post by [james] » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:09 am

loves' the unjust wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:45 pm
[james] wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:34 pm
You also say that myriad practices come forth from zazen.
Let me ask you then to describe how the technique of counting supports the coming forth of myriad practices.
the buddha lived many centuries ago.
Approximately 2500 years ago.
i believe the budhism is the first MAIN faith or religion in the human history.
i don't know if with the same time with the invention of the wheel or not human discover the zazen.
high possibility that he couldn't be able to get out of the cave because of the bad wheather or so
by sitting alone all the time with have nothing to do of anything he discovered it.
by doing nothing.
(these are my thoughts)
but it is said that ALL the other religions', faiths'
and all the other spiritual practices have flourished from zazen.
I would generally agree. Throughout the long millennia of human presence on this earth, people have spent a lot of their time in waiting ... for the weather to change, for the herds to reappear, for the food to run out, for death to take them ... all good conditions for something we now call zazen or shikantaza to take root and to be examined and explored.

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Re: Zen Practice

Post by Spike » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:23 am

[james] wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:34 pm

My question to Enver is whether counting up to ten (or whatever number] is a lesser practice or is even a zen practice at all.
My read: ltu says counting is the main practice. Then he contradicts.
Meido Moore's monastery and contact info:
www.korinji.org

Genjo Marinello's temple and contact info:
https://choboji.org/

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Re: Zen Practice

Post by Spike » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:45 am

[james] wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:09 am
loves' the unjust wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:45 pm
[james] wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:34 pm
You also say that myriad practices come forth from zazen.
Let me ask you then to describe how the technique of counting supports the coming forth of myriad practices.
the buddha lived many centuries ago.
Approximately 2500 years ago.
i believe the budhism is the first MAIN faith or religion in the human history.
i don't know if with the same time with the invention of the wheel or not human discover the zazen.
high possibility that he couldn't be able to get out of the cave because of the bad wheather or so
by sitting alone all the time with have nothing to do of anything he discovered it.
by doing nothing.
(these are my thoughts)
but it is said that ALL the other religions', faiths'
and all the other spiritual practices have flourished from zazen.
I would generally agree. Throughout the long millennia of human presence on this earth, people have spent a lot of their time in waiting ... for the weather to change, for the herds to reappear, for the food to run out, for death to take them ... all good conditions for something we now call zazen or shikantaza to take root and to be examined and explored.
Primitive humans were not constricted by weather. They adapted. They didn't wait for herds to reappear. They learned to follow them.

I believe zazen originated during the time of zen Buddhism, not at the time of the invention of the wheel, and is therefore a Buddhist practice unlike any other.

I believe that buddhism did not predate many other religions or faiths. I don't consider buddhism theocentric, therefore not worshipful/religious.
loves' the unjust wrote: ALL the other religions, faiths', all the other spiritual practices have flourished from zazen.
Horsepuckie.
Meido Moore's monastery and contact info:
www.korinji.org

Genjo Marinello's temple and contact info:
https://choboji.org/

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