When White Buddhists “Don’t See Race”

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When White Buddhists “Don’t See Race”

Post by fuki » Sat May 30, 2020 12:06 am

Interesting article I came across while googling "racism yogachara" Related to watching two days of cnn now regarding "george floyd" seeing how the conditioned mind works/forms and how it relates to our cultural conditioning whatever form of discrimination/bias (race/sex/species etc) is a daily observation. I sometime observe rudimentry "string-energy" "to become-thoughts" arising, silly residue of whatever I picked up or collectively conditioned not relating to race but other thingies wanting to 'form and project/label' but mostly see it for what it is. But ofcourse also miss it, meaning already in a narrative a kind of day dream when talking to people, mostly harmless but still interesting when "returning" to awareness. Not sure if this makes sense, can use this thread next time I notice it.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.lionsr ... -race/amp/

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Re: When White Buddhists “Don’t See Race”

Post by jundocohen » Sun May 31, 2020 7:25 am

Hi All,

It is good to be here after a long while. Good luck Fuki. I will post something kinda serious ...

====================

For Justice & Peace

There is rioting today in many American cities, and other places in the world as well. I cry for all victims of violence.

Someone said that the Buddha and Dogen had nothing to say about such things, but that is far from true. Yes, they both taught that we should know a reality beyond me vs. you, right and wrong, justice and injustice, peace and war, thus to encounter a Just Peace of the universe at the heart of all division. This is true. However, both men also taught that, here in our ordinary world, we should maintain a certain decorum, rightness and peace in our behavior too.

I saw a sign today carried by some Buddhists protesting. It read,"Buddhists FOR Justice AND Peace," a twist on the famous "No Justice, No Peace" which threatens anger and violent response in the face of injustice. The Buddhist attitude is something different, that we should have justice AND peace too, a two way street of reciprocity.

In Shobogenzo Bodaisatta-shishōbō ("The Four Embracing Actions of a Bodhisattva"), Master Dogen seems to have been speaking to some leader, likely a samurai and someone in the government, about the attitudes of a wise and just ruler in enforcing the laws. As with the Buddha, who often spoke to kings among his followers, Dogen counsels mutual respect and obligation of leaders to their subjects in order to maintain peace and harmony in the realm. This was Master Dogen's vision too, especially when we remember that he was probably preaching to a samurai leader carrying a sword:
"Even if one is so powerful as to rule the four continents, if one wants to bestow teachings of the true Way, simply one must not be greedy. ... A Chinese Emperor gave his beard as medicine to treat his retainer's illness. ... To build a bridge or launch a boat can be an act of generous giving. ...

Kind speech”means that when meeting living beings, you arouse a heart of compassion for them and offer caring and loving words. It is contrary to cruel, violent and harmful words. ... It is kind speech to speak to living beings with a mind of compassionate caring as one would to one's own baby. ... Even in reconciling enemies, and promoting harmony and peace among people, kind speech is fundamental. ... Remember that kind speech arises from a loving mind, and a loving mind arises from the seed of a compassionate heart. You should know that kind speech has the power to transform the world. ...

“Beneficial Action” is employing skillful means to benefit sentient beings of all classes, humble or noble, caring about their near and distant futures, using skillful means to help them. ... In an old story, a king wishing to greet urgent petitioners, three times stopped [] his dinner table to hear them out. He did this solely with the intention of helping others. There was never a thought in his mind that they were foreigners from other lands, not people of his kingdom, and so not truly his concern. ... So, we should seek to benefit friends and foes alike, and we should seek to benefit our own self and others alike. ... Working together in “Cooperation” means not to engage in differences. It is not to be contrary to oneself nor contrary toward others. For example, the Buddha when alive in this human world in human form identified with other human beings. ... There is the principle that after letting others identify and harmonize with us, we then cause ourself to identify and harmonize with others. Self and others, depending on the occasion, become boundless without border. ...

Wise rulers do not weary of people; therefore they might unite a large following. A "large following” means a nation, and a “wise ruler” means the leader of the nation. Leaders do not weary of the people. On the other hand, “not to weary of the people” does not mean that there are no rewards or punishments to be sometimes handed out. However, even when there is reward and punishment, there is never hatred of the people. ... Because wise rulers understand all this, they do not weary of people. Although people form into a nation, however, and seek a wise ruler, few always completely understand the truth of the wise ruler having to act as a wise ruler. Therefore, they simply hope to be supported by the wise ruler. They do not realize that they are the ones to support the wise ruler too.
Dogen also spoke of poverty, in Zuimonki 2-2 for example, about a story in which a Buddhist teacher gave away a statue of Buddha to feed the poor: "The Buddha cut off his flesh and limbs and offered them to living beings. Even if we gave the whole body of the Buddha to people who are actually about to die of starvation, such an action would certainly be in accordance with the Buddha’s will. Even if I fall into hell because of this sin, I have just saved living beings from starvation.”

It is also said that Dogen structured his monastery, not merely as a religious establishment, but as a kind of ideal vision of social harmony. I believe he would have like to if he could, but he could not change the chaotic world outside the temple gates, so he built an ideal world inside. There, all residents were entitled to mutual respect in an atmosphere without hate, killing and violence. There were ranks, but not great disparity in treatment, and all were entitled to a safe place to sleep, food, learning and medical care (at least, as it existed in the 13th century). In turn, however, recipients were expected to do their work, their duties as citizens of the community, and to be respectful toward the others. What is vital to note about Dogen's ideal world is that rights and obligations run in ALL directions.

Today, people are angry. They have much to be angry about. (This is one of the times when the Precepts on Preserving Life and the Vow to Aid Sentient Beings calls for some Buddhists to choose to speak out). People are angry because the people dying of Covid-19 are disproportionately members of economic minorities who have been denied access to good healthcare in the past in many cases, or are otherwise suffering the effects of poverty, including a high incidence of diabetes, heart disease, the effects of drug use, alcoholism and the like. Many also feel singled out by police. If we are inspired by Dogen's vision, nobody should be denied basic access to resources, healthy food, good housing and health care, nor subject to excess violence at the hands of the authorities.

On the other hand, the police deserve respect from the citizens too, just as Dogen's people of the nation must support the ruler who keeps the law. No, there should never be violence by police which employs excess force. It is wrong, and should be both prevented and punished. On the other hand, the police in doing their jobs are often under tremendous threat, cursed and abused, resulting in a high prevalence of PTSD and the like. Simply put ... everyone should respect everyone, it runs both ways. The police should not employ excess violence, but they should also not be the targets of violence. The police should respect and speak gently with the citizens, the citizens should respect and speak gently with the police.

Furthermore, violence is wrong in the Buddhist vision, especially when done in anger. It is understandable that people are upset at perceived injustice, and they have reason to protest and make their outrage be heard. However, anger leads to anger, violence to violence. There are ways of civil disobedience that would do better, and be more effective to actually solve the problem: Have a sit down protest in front of the police station, occupy a building (do not burn it down), block a road (but let the ambulances through). Like that. As Dogen said, "kind speech has the power to transform the world."

Also, in Dogen's view, while everyone in the monastery had to be provided with basic resources and opportunities, there was also great self-responsibility to take care of oneself. Yes, some live in poverty and that should not be. Resources should be available to all, and ideally, equal opportunity. But on the other side, people must take care of themselves, stay clean, off alcohol and drugs, be civil, work hard to improve oneself too. The idea of Karma, that we each personally act for good and bad, is a system of personal self-responsibility too.

Alas, I fear that what I write above will satisfy nobody, and upset people on all sides. Some will think the Buddhist folks like me should keep out of it. Well, it is all our society and world to share. We have mutual responsibility for each other. We have self responsibility too. We must treat each other with kindness and respect.

Let us sit for a time in Zazen, beyond me and you, rioters and police, justice and injustice, food and water and any mouth to eat. Then, rising from the cushion, let us work for peace, justice, food and water for all the hungry children, peace between me and you.

Gassho, Jundo

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Re: When White Buddhists “Don’t See Race”

Post by Larry » Sun May 31, 2020 7:35 am

Welcome back. Good to see you 🙏

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Re: When White Buddhists “Don’t See Race” - For Justice & Peace

Post by fuki » Sun May 31, 2020 12:16 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 7:25 am

Alas, I fear that what I write above will satisfy nobody, and upset people on all sides. Some will think the Buddhist folks like me should keep out of it. Well, it is all our society and world to share. We have mutual responsibility for each other. We have self responsibility too. We must treat each other with kindness and respect.

Let us sit for a time in Zazen, beyond me and you, rioters and police, justice and injustice, food and water and any mouth to eat. Then, rising from the cushion, let us work for peace, justice, food and water for all the hungry children, peace between me and you.

Gassho, Jundo
Hi Jundo, so happy to see you here, thanks for this beautiful inspirational talk!

I'd like to share a daily life observation when with friends/family, just one example this time with a hijab as a prop but ‘discrimination’ manifests in a myriad of situations ofcourse.

For instance there’s someone who has a reaction when seeing people with a hijab, when in the car waiting for pedestrians to cross the road a comment like “do I have to wait for head-towels/foreigners too” might appear. Ironically people’s covering (the meaning of hijab) can ‘uncover’ people’s conditioning. Most people just follow their formed thoughts/feelings and rarely observe/contemplate what the hell just happened, how it ‘originated’ and what kind of (collective) consequences it can have. Even though it are “only thoughts” or “only feelings” or more subtle rudimentary energies prior to what is commonly known as “thoughts” or “feelings” In times of ‘peace’ one can every day observe riots, racism, war all such ‘knots’ and churning inner conflicts/contractions manifested everyday in the minds of people.

But 'we' only seem to talk about racism, war, etc when there’s an obvious physical 'external' manifestation thereof while collectively it has been ‘cooking’ and ‘brewing’ 24/7 in the minds of people, just going about their daily business, far as I can see everyone’s wearing a hijab in that sense. I talk/point about this with friends/family almost daily, for me those are not uncomfortable talks (I heared a pastor on cnn I think talk about we should have these uncomfortable talks with each other, white folks especially perhaps) it’s just the ‘fruits’ of practise, I suspect “Buddhist practisioners” are observant in nature rather then just following whatever internal narrative happens and auto-projecting it unto the ‘world’ generating the usual division (or surpressing it). All people have in some way been culturally conditioned/biased, people often react “but I’m not racist” but that’s also just a thought, kind of self-referential, it’s not about my or your so called ‘awakening’ it’s about seeing through our collective conditioning, talking about this without making it about anyone in particular (if that still exists) is important work, a joy, open and spacious instead of ‘uncomfortable’

Some ppl call it ‘manifesting paradise’ others might call it ‘emptying samsara’ Sounds the same to me, in any case we’re in this together, yes ‘me’ here in a ‘distant’ land behind a pc is also george floyd, the u.s.a. the cause of slavery and freedom, “the 3000 worlds in a single moment” Thank you Jundo, et all, for returning here and offering your insights.
:namaste:

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Re: When White Buddhists “Don’t See Race”

Post by jundocohen » Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:38 am

Hi Fuki,

Good to be in touch.

I also feel that violence has a place, even for Buddhists sometimes, but it should not be in anger, and it should only a last resort.

Various Buddhists will disagree, but I believe that it is sometimes justified if necessary to save life. That may include, for example, use of reasonable deadly force (emphasis on reasonable) as my friend, a police officer, needed to use once to rescue a child being held hostage, or the use of force if one has an intruder in one's home. Even so, we should avoid to act in anger, and we should avoid excess force by police or anyone. I think that some groups, such as the Rohingya in Burma, might be justified in some violence if necessary to defend their villages and members from being burned or killed in a pogrom, ethnic cleansing etc.

I think there has to be some clear connection, however, and no reasonable alternative. Thus, while some might argue that violence in the streets to overturn an unjust system is necessary to "save lives" because members of a minority group are dying of poverty in a situation that is like "ethnic cleansing," burning a Starbucks or throwing rocks at police does not seem directly connected to the goal, and it seems counter-productive and motivated by anger. There are reasonable alternatives, and peaceful action should be maintained unless unavoidable. Violence should only be a last resort.

This is just my view, I am not the last word on this for other Buddhists. I wonder what others here feel.

Gassho, J

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Re: When White Buddhists “Don’t See Race”

Post by fuki » Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:21 pm

Thanks Jundo.

Yes violence is always a last resort, humans though are socially/culturally conditioned to be violent. Parents are violent, though they might call it "discipline" or "parenting" but many of it leads to psychological harm, violence is even romantized/glorified in stories and in movies, don't know how much you're aware of the horror of factory farming but most living beings are seen as products or objects ending up as consumer products. Human society isn't based on prevention as I see it, it directly and inderectly it advocates and generates and economically thrives on violence. Most people experience violent thoughts/sensation through the day, whether conscious of it or not, its how we've became as a species but most of it is controlled or compartilized in sports, games, movies, cooking, dreaming or whatever 'outlets' or 'hobbies' there are.

The Buddhist precepts are a respons to causes and conditions and have a preventive function but it cannot transform or update collective consciousness just by "following" precepts. So the view of non-violence sounds nice but when ppl take a real close look (which should come natural to buddhists) one might find to be supporting a lot of violence directly or indirectly in their daily lifes. But violence in your example, sure when it's needed "violence" can be a function of "compassion" too, or at least preventing or "stopping" it getting out of hand, though if I'm a police man making an arrest free from the poisons, still that person might experience unwholesome thoughts at that moment or later in jail, so depending on one's social function one can't always avoid violence.

I think the police had its own precepts just like doctors or buddhists? Problem is just as not every Buddhist "follows" or is inspired by the precepts (or interpretates them selective and conveniently) that applies to every social function, and I believe Buddhism is a social function rather then often (ab)used only as a self-referential tool for "individual" "awakening" Buddhists in certain functions like policeman ofcourse will have to use "violence" as a tool, last resort or not. As Buddhist practisioners one of the "fruits" of practise should be(come) that one can naturally respond to conditions not having to rely (anymore) on words and letters (scripture/views) and thereby effortlessly do the "right thing" "Violence" might be a part of that if there's no other 'option'

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Re: When White Buddhists “Don’t See Race”

Post by p22 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:38 am

Martin Luther King suggested in his speech that riots do not appear out of thin air, they're the language of the unheard-

In other words, they are dependent upon other factors-

To suggest that nothing productive is ever accomplished when one is angry is to dismiss, and be critical of, another cultures way of communicating, of expressing generations of racially motivated killings, inequality, poverty and intentional neglect-

How is it different to bust a city to smithereens than to destroy a mendala made of sand? Neither is permanent-

One is simply preferred by each culture-

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Re: When White Buddhists “Don’t See Race”

Post by p22 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:41 am

And when neither take lives ..

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Re: When White Buddhists “Don’t See Race”

Post by p22 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:43 am

And windows are made of sand!

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Re: When White Buddhists “Don’t See Race”

Post by p22 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:43 am

:109:

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Re: When White Buddhists “Don’t See Race”

Post by p22 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:15 pm

Maybe when people break windows they aren't pithed off ..

One of my children got slapped across the face the other day at a demonstration when he peacefully asked a group to please stop breaking windows, then the one that slapped him hugged him :110: and said something similar to:

"Don't you realize? The next time you see sky, it'll be over another town. The next time you take a test, it'll be in some other school. Our parents, they want the best of stuff for us. But right now, they got to do what's right for them. Because it's their time. Their time! Up there! Down here, it's our time. It's our time down here. That's all over the second we ride up Troy's bucket."

Then they carried on down the street, to the next window ..

There are many ways to being awakened ..

:115:

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Re: When White Buddhists “Don’t See Race”

Post by fuki » Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:29 pm

p22 wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:15 pm
Maybe when people break windows they aren't pithed off ..

One of my children got slapped across the face the other day at a demonstration when he peacefully asked a group to please stop breaking windows, then the one that slapped him hugged him :110: and said something similar to:

"Don't you realize? The next time you see sky, it'll be over another town. The next time you take a test, it'll be in some other school. Our parents, they want the best of stuff for us. But right now, they got to do what's right for them. Because it's their time. Their time! Up there! Down here, it's our time. It's our time down here. That's all over the second we ride up Troy's bucket."

Then they carried on down the street, to the next window ..

There are many ways to being awakened ..

:115:
Thanks for sharing that story Teresa, wonderful yes there's always room for support, learning, sharing without creating a 'position' or polarizing everything, just like broken or non-broken windows.
:110:

(still dont get the pithed reference) 🙃

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Re: When White Buddhists “Don’t See Race”

Post by fuki » Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:31 pm

p22 wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:43 am
And windows are made of sand!
:lol:

Yes windows are made of non-windows
it's bananas! :lol:

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Re: When White Buddhists “Don’t See Race”

Post by p22 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:08 pm

JSRISFDB5XGRRI67SNBGZIOZIE.jpg
Road leading to the white house ..
JSRISFDB5XGRRI67SNBGZIOZIE.jpg (349.17 KiB) Viewed 1913 times
Banana-colored message .. :559:

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Re: When White Buddhists “Don’t See Race”

Post by jundocohen » Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:01 am

Chant of Metta for -All- in Social Unrest

Today, during our Sangha's Zazen gathering, we recited a chant of Metta (Loving Kindness), seeking peace, safety, stillness, health and kindness for --all-- in this time of social unrest in America and elsewhere.

We chant for the peaceful protesters and for members of social groups who feel victimized and abused by the system. But we also chant for looters and the angry violent people who burn and destroy.

We chant for all police, both those who do wrong and great harm, and the many who do not, merely seeking to better the community.

We chant for political leaders, both those who we personally support and those we cannot at all and believe are doing great damage.

We even chant for the truly bigoted, racist and hate filled, and those with lesser prejudices and biases of any kind (which includes all of us to some degree).

Some may find it hard to understand how we can wish peace, safety, stillness, health, contentment and kindness upon racists, police officers who kill with excess force, the hate-filled and violent. It is simple. We chant with the wish that they were not so, that others like them would turn from such ways. We believe that if such people were truly at peace, truly accepting, truly healthy in mind and body, truly filled with kindness, then they would not act in such angry, racist, violent, abusive ways. That is how we chant even for those who act so badly and do others, or ourselves, harm.

Our Metta Chant at Treeleaf goes (using sometimes "they" and sometimes "we," recognizing that we all have the potential to be poisoned by anger and divided thinking):



May we be free of suffering; may we feel safe and still.

May we be free of enmity; may we be loving, grateful and kind.

May we be healthy and at ease in all our ills.

May we be at peace, embracing all conditions of life.


Please recite with us. Doing so can bring feelings of peace, safety, stillness, acceptance and kindness to your heart too.

https://youtu.be/l1Tqu-stAcU


Let us remedy injustices, correct wrongs, while bringing peace and non-violence to our society too.

Sometimes people ask if there is real power in the chant. Well, if we put out words of hate and division on the internet, it certainly has power to cause hurt and division on the other side of the world among those who read it. So, just the same for words of kindness and unity, which have some power to heal.

Gassho, J

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Re: When White Buddhists “Don’t See Race”

Post by jundocohen » Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:11 am

I found this short article interesting and in keeping with Buddhist ideas on who we are and how we become so, and how our self-identity is a construct in so many ways.

Children need not be like their parents or grandparents.

I always say that Zen is about dropping "divisions and judgments from mind." Certainly, there are some divisions and judgments which we can particularly learn to do without.

===========

Children aren't born racist. Here's how parents can stop them from becoming racist.

Some parents of white kids, meanwhile, fear they'll raise children who will grow up to be racist -- if not the kind of racist who suffocates a man with a knee to the neck, then the kind who will quietly commit microaggressions.

How, they wonder, can we raise kids to be anti-racist?

The first step is understanding where racism comes from -- the underlying psychological and cognitive functions that lead us to see and categorize people by color, according to May Ling Halim, associate professor of psychology at California State University, Long Beach, and Sarah Gaither, assistant professor psychology and neuroscience at Duke University.

Babies as young as three months can distinguish faces by color, and 3-year-olds are fully capable of understanding racial categories, and even the hierarchies that come with them. The trick is to accept that this categorization is normal, and to keep it from mutating into racism.
https://us.cnn.com/2020/06/06/health/ki ... index.html

Gassho, J

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Re: When White Buddhists “Don’t See Race”

Post by Larry » Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:01 am

jundocohen wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:11 am
“Some parents of white kids, meanwhile, fear they'll raise children who will grow up to be racist”
I don’t quite get that. My grandfather fought in the First World War in Africa and believed black people to be definitively inferior. My mother inherited those views and is to this day proudly racist. I broke the cycle by marrying a lady from the Philippines and have no fear whatsoever that my daughter will ever be racist.

Kids get it from the parents. And if parents fear their kids will become racist, they’re doing something wrong.

On the other side of the coin....not a lot of mention in the mainstream media that George Floyd was a violent criminal who once broke into a pregnant woman’s house and poked her stomach with a gun. Back to hagiography.

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Re: When White Buddhists “Don’t See Race”

Post by p22 » Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:27 pm

When my husband died my brother in law said to me, "my brother could be a fucking asshole"- Hearing that was like balm, a deep penetrating healing, sorely needed in order fully mourn the loss of the whole man-

It's a healthy practice- To fully communicate in life, and in death-

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Re: When White Buddhists “Don’t See Race”

Post by fuki » Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:12 pm

Larry wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:01 am
My grandfather fought in the First World War in Africa and believed black people to be definitively inferior. My mother inherited those views and is to this day proudly racist. I broke the cycle by marrying a lady from the Philippines and have no fear whatsoever that my daughter will ever be racist.
:111:
Kids get it from the parents. And if parents fear their kids will become racist, they’re doing something wrong.
Yes from parents but also from friends/schools, mostly racism (or unconscious bias) is not something deliberate, for instance someone who has been scratched by a cat at a young age may have a fear of cats the rest of their lives, especially if they never confront that fear, if then ppl they hang out with also fear cats, or have an unconscious base/cultural or scratching conditioning then ofcourse it only enhances the conditioning.

I have a friend who once said "I'll never date a black man" though she's not a racist (whatever that may mean) asking her why that was, she actually didn't know, but after a few minutes she realized it was due to her father when she was young telling her to never bring a black man home or "I'll kill you" So that memory was a relief to her, despite memory it is also in the organs or once whole body, so seeing a non-white color still madeher feel uncomfortable (despite having no negative experience with ppl of colour so I adviced her to hang out with black people some more, over time her conditioning was tansformed. Hence my earlier comment that the policeman will probably not learn anything in jail (if sentenced) from the "karmic" or habit-energy/ unspent unergy viewpoint.

I notice in dutchylan ppl are biased towards Moroccans mainly, since like in the projects in the usa black ppl/poverty neighbourhoods are associated with crime, so a lot of ppl have a bias because of these associations with Moraccons, while statistically it's not even correct, it's just in a dominant white culture the brain picks out and associates like that. In a country where most apples are red and most crimes are thus by red apples, whenever a green apple is violent all the red brains go "oh all those green apples are criminals" and here's the problem with media, on tv it's mostly the green apples which are shown (for various reasons) so red apples watching tv mumble with each other, "ofcourse the red apples again"
Even woman here are more afraid of being raped by someone of colour then a white man, while statistically it's so much more likely to be raped by a white man, and their daughters pick up on this unlogical fear or energy, parents (society/friends) also manifest unconscious bias even without speech, just see how many dogs tend to react to ppl of colour aggressively, that is in a dominantly white neighbourhood, those dogs arent racist but they feel the unconscious fear/bias from their 'owners' Children/babies pick up on that too.

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Re: When White Buddhists “Don’t See Race”

Post by fuki » Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:42 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:01 am

https://youtu.be/l1Tqu-stAcU


Let us remedy injustices, correct wrongs, while bringing peace and non-violence to our society too.

Sometimes people ask if there is real power in the chant. Well, if we put out words of hate and division on the internet, it certainly has power to cause hurt and division on the other side of the world among those who read it. So, just the same for words of kindness and unity, which have some power to heal.

Gassho, J
:namaste:

Thank you Dear Jundo,
The Metta sutra is very powerful, ofcourse as an 'inner transformation' but (if earnest) like the "om namo buddhya" expands into infinity, whenever I visit the local sangha or sit with some friends we always open before zazen with the metta sutra in Dutch, in a group setting it is very powerful, one person always does a subtle drum rhytm when chanting together. But if people have the tendency to ask "does this help" then the earnestness is already missing to be honest, just practise/chant without any goal or idea of 'gaining' or 'lacking' or 'inner' and 'outer'

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